Thread: Anyone used 2206h/4895 for .308 subsonic load?

Greetings Again,
Cold and windy today (old age pensioners are sensitive to this) so I dug out the article mentioned above which appeared in 1987. The cartridge was the .240 Gibbs. This is the .25-06 necked down and the shoulder blown forward. Roger Stowers, who wrote the article, started with what he thought was a start load of 49 grains of IMR4831 behind the 105 grain Speer spitzer. Blown primers appeared straight away. Later he found that elevating the muzzle to settle the powder next to the primer eliminated the problem so to me this was an ignition problem. Over time he included H4831 and IMR7828 with the same results and finally increased the powder charge which cured the problem. He also tried seating the projectiles with much more jump to the rifling which had the same effect.
So to summarise the problem was with slow powders that did not fill the case with cases that had very large capacity for the bore. Roger did not mention what primer he used but most data for the smaller .240 Weatherby use magnum primers. I wonder if these may have helped.
Regards Grandpamac.

Thanks for all the info guys, much appreciated.


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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

I dont believe you would do it in normal case..there is trail boss around.lots of fellas bought it thinking subs were going to be awesome on deer,wounded an animal or two and the pottle is now in discrace in back of cabinet.

Would like to know where some of this Trail Boss is lying around spare. Haven't been able to source any for quite some time now. It does the job just fine for my uses.

Save yourself some grief and ask Shooternz. Knows sub loads in 308 and with his own rollies if you want to kill them dead[er] Latter a phrase by our own MD from the SI. .

13gr of Red Dot was considered the reduced load for cast lead with gas checks - google that one there's a heap of info out about it. Red Dot is a fast shotgun/pistol powder so reduced loads tend to not be susceptible to position sensitivity and don't require a filler - but at the other end don't like being loaded up as the pressure curve is steep (i.e. straight up). Google search a bit more about the options people have used on it and you might find a load that mirrors your barrel length, twist and projectile weight etc etc.

The benefit of trail boss over red dot is it's bulk i.e a near full case is still likely close to subsonic. The shotgun and pistol powders don't have the bulk so need a little more care but the 13gr of red dot in a .308 case with around 165gr cast pills seems to be a fairly consistent performer. But do your research on it as I said especially if you want to adjust the speed you are achieving...

Do a search for article regarding Red Dot powder. Works ok but more finniky than Trail Boss.
"The Load' is 13Grains of Red Dot" by Ed Harris.

ADI no longer advises that a 60% load of AR2206H is safe.

Hodgdon still list 60% loads for H4895 which i think is AR2206H rebranded.

I have used lots of rounds of .308 win with 60% AR2206H and not had an incident, however they are definitely NOT subsonic.

If I remember correctly around 1800fps

Originally Posted by pinesdiver

ADI no longer advises that a 60% load of AR2206H is safe.

Hodgdon still list 60% loads for H4895 which i think is AR2206H rebranded.

Since when?

Originally Posted by No.3

13gr of Red Dot was considered the reduced load for cast lead with gas checks - google that one there's a heap of info out about it. Red Dot is a fast shotgun/pistol powder so reduced loads tend to not be susceptible to position sensitivity and don't require a filler - but at the other end don't like being loaded up as the pressure curve is steep (i.e. straight up). Google search a bit more about the options people have used on it and you might find a load that mirrors your barrel length, twist and projectile weight etc etc.

The benefit of trail boss over red dot is it's bulk i.e a near full case is still likely close to subsonic. The shotgun and pistol powders don't have the bulk so need a little more care but the 13gr of red dot in a .308 case with around 165gr cast pills seems to be a fairly consistent performer. But do your research on it as I said especially if you want to adjust the speed you are achieving...

Red Dot 700X 800X and AS30 are all nearly as bulky as Trail Boss and in the same burn range I have tried all of them at 8.0 grains in my .308 with the 151HP cast and they are safe
I did not use any fillers and had no issues with ignition,

Greetings,
I was looking for that load data on the Hodgdons site recently but it seems to have disappeared (or I could not find it). The rule is still there but not the data. The latest issue of Rifle had an article by Art Merrill about using reduced loads of H4895 in a 7x57 rolling block to allow endless neck sizing to extend case life and he published the load data in his article. He found that SAAMI had used a very short headspace dimension for the 7mm which resulted in most dies setting the shoulder back around 0.010" resulting in short case life. My own experience with the 6.5x55 showed the same thing. Art called his article "The 60% Solution" and it can be applied to the .303 as well as I have done.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by shooternz

Red Dot 700X 800X and AS30 are all nearly as bulky as Trail Boss and in the same burn range I have tried all of them at 8.0 grains in my .308 with the 151HP cast and they are safe
I did not use any fillers and had no issues with ignition,

Watching this thread intently - Having said those powders work fine, have you tried jacketed proj with these powders at all? Is leading a thing with using boolits in barrels needing scrubbing before returning to jacketed proj use? Hence my reluctance to use for subsonic use...
Thanks RW !

Originally Posted by Nasty Factory Trigger

Watching this thread intently - Having said those powders work fine, have you tried jacketed proj with these powders at all? Is leading a thing with using boolits in barrels needing scrubbing before returning to jacketed proj use? Hence my reluctance to use for subsonic use...
Thanks RW !

Ask your self this question do you get leading in your .22RF?
The 151HP has a gas check which scrapes the bore clean they can handle 1800f, If there is any leading it will be from the copper fouling tearing up the bullet,
All you need to do for cleaning is swab the barrel out with a good bore Solvent and a few patches just like a .22RF

Originally Posted by shooternz

Ask your self this question do you get leading in your .22RF?
The 151HP has a gas check which scrapes the bore clean they can handle 1800f, If there is any leading it will be from the copper fouling tearing up the bullet,
All you need to do for cleaning is swab the barrel out with a good bore Solvent and a few patches just like a .22RF

Always something to learn even at my age... Great example mate - consider me learned... Your experience and wisdom is much appreciated sir.
Now to source the powders you mentions earlier for some testing...

Originally Posted by Nasty Factory Trigger

Always something to learn even at my age... Great example mate - consider me learned... Your experience and wisdom is much appreciated sir.
Now to source the powders you mentions earlier for some testing...

Lots of old shotgunners around Hamilton, so also keep your eye out for ICI Nobel 78 Shotgun Powder. I've used it a lot in place of Red Dot, AP70N etc. Lovely bulky powder. It is slightly faster than AS30N. Nobel never published data for Pistol loads with N78 so unlike the others mentioned in the thread, its not known for this usage. I used Red Dot load data to work up my loads in Pistol calibres with the start and max both a tad lower. Like all of them it can peak the pressure very quickly. I treat 13 gn in a 30 cal case (cf the original "The Load" of 13gn Red Dot), as very much a max load.

Have fun.