Thread: Initial info on pistol grip law change.

Mods feel free to lock this thread if it turns into a gong show. This is for the info of anybody curious about the coming changes to regulations on AR's etc.

Police Firearms Advisory Forum

TUESDAY 18 JUNE 2013 AT 1000 HRS

Attendees
Michael Dowling, Chair, Council of Licensed Firearm Owners Inc
Paul Clark, Firearms Dealer
Kath Arnold, National President, New Zealand Antique and Historic Arms Association
Trevor Dyke (for Tim McCarthy), Former National President, New Zealand Deerstalkers Association
Nicole McKee, Programme Manager, Firearms & Hunter Safety, NZ Mountain Safety Council
John Herbert, President, New Zealand Service Rifle Association
Debbie Wakker, President, Pistol New Zealand

Police members:
Catherine Petrey, National Manager Policy, Police National Headquarters (Chair)
Inspector Joe Green, Manager, Police Licensing and Vetting (currently on secondment)
Senior Sergeant Richard Smith, Acting Manager, Police Licensing and Vetting
Robert Ngamoki, Senior Police Armourer
Mike Cole, Police Arms Officer, Wellington
Geoffrey Dunn, Team Leader, Justice and Transport Policy Team

Apology
Darryl Crow, Chair, National Rifle Association of New Zealand

Exerts:

..acknowledged that Advisory Forum members may wish to consult with their respective members about specific issues, but asked that they not publicly broadcast what is being discussed during the process. If policy proposals under discussion are made public this will reduce the confidence that Police will have to share information and a breakdown in trust can take a long time to repair.

Further comments included:

This discussion is not about the merits of the 1992 legislation as it exists. That legislation was rushed and some of the problems that emerged have resulted from this.

There has been insufficient time since receiving Police's letter for Advisory Group members to discuss matters with their respective groups. There is still time for this discussion as the development of the regulation is at a relatively early stage, although there are some time restraints (the Amendment Act having to come into force by 11 December 2013 at the latest).

Key Objectives for this meeting

1. Definition of "pistol grip"
As earlier advised, the key objective for this meeting was to develop a definition of "pistol grip", in order to complete the definition of a MSSA that is in the 2012 Amendment Act. (If a semi-automatic has this type of pistol grip, then it will be classified as an MSSA.) The definition needs to more or less align with the interpretation of free standing pistol grip that Police applied from 1992 to 2009. Police is not intending to involve the element of military pattern in the definition, but to focus on the free standing nature of the pistol grip.

The draft definition put forward for feedback is as follows:

Free-standing pistol grip means -
(a) the bottom of the grip of the firearm is not supported by or is not part of any one piece or integral structure (excluding the trigger guard)connecting the grip to the stock ; and
(b) does not include a thumbhole, or Dragunov style stock.

Other Matters

Discussion included the following points:

Whether the Hogue pistol grip firearm from Gun City Christchurch would meet the definition. Because of the materials used in its construction, it would not meet a definition using the word 'homogenous', but using the word 'integral' instead could allow for the different materials.

Safe Use of Firearms - a concern around safe use of firearms was raised. For example, a firearm could be dangerous where the safety catch is not reachable with the trigger hand. It therefore required removing the left hand from supporting the firearm to release the safety, resulting in change to the balance of the firearm possibly distorting the aim, and also distracting the eye from the target momentarily at the point of taking the shot. This matter was not addressed in the papers provided.

Safety Catch issue The Mountain Safety Council, has just under 500 volunteer members that provide firearms training. Its stance is "don't ever rely on the safety catch", and it encourages bolt action firearms, and for owners to go to clubs if they want to learn better or more advanced skills. Its members mostly come to get licences for work vets, etc.

There has been an increase in sales of ammunition for semi-automatics. There has been a significant increase in semi-automatic firearms in the community and this needs to be recognised. Police needs to get the message to firearm owners who are not members of clubs or organisations.

Other members also reported large numbers of lifestyle block holders and small game and bird shooters using semi-automatics, and more than 70% of sales through Hamills were reported to be semi-automatics.

Fishing and hunting forums on the internet are very powerful communication tools (possibly not appropriate for Police though).

Magazine capacity the change to 10 rounds will create a supply issue. It will also impose costs on shooters for them to comply. Forum members to provide any information on the financial impact as a result of this change.

Thanks for the info, good to have something a bit more solid than the masses of speculation floating around.

Have to wonder how they categorise 'ammunition for semi-automatics' though!

Big thanks Beavis, plenty of rumours both good & bad flying around.....lets see what happens!!!!!

So the dude selling those fibre carbon thumbhole stocks may sell a few more of them do you reckon ??
He was always waaa ing on about them being A Cat approved ...see he actually states that on his website now hmmm : Products

Thanks Beavis for the update.

Whats the bit about magazine change to 10 rounds?
Are they talking about all rimfire going from 15 to 10?

Or just the non .22 ones that their cr*ppy drafted legislation left out?

Originally Posted by dogmatix

Whats the bit about magazine change to 10 rounds?
Are they talking about all rimfire going from 15 to 10?

Or just the non .22 ones that their cr*ppy drafted legislation left out?

Nobodies sure

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Thanks for the info, good to have something a bit more solid than the masses of speculation floating around.

Have to wonder how they categorise 'ammunition for semi-automatics' though!

I don't understand the point of this statement either. Remember this is just and excerpt of all full document.

Originally Posted by dogmatix

Whats the bit about magazine change to 10 rounds?
Are they talking about all rimfire going from 15 to 10?

Or just the non .22 ones that their cr*ppy drafted legislation left out?

"Costs involved" sounds like reducing all mags to 10 shot.

Yeah, sounds like it.

Originally Posted by Beavis

There has been an increase in sales of ammunition for semi-automatics. There has been a significant increase in semi-automatic firearms in the community and this needs to be recognised. Police needs to get the message to firearm owners who are not members of clubs or organisations.

What exactly are they talking about here?

They can't change the mag capacity for anything - it would require another whole amendment.

Any body else have a concern with consideration of complying with this exert right at the begining.......

..acknowledged that Advisory Forum members may wish to consult with their respective members about specific issues, but asked that they not publicly broadcast what is being discussed during the process.

or is it just me now that this public accessible thread has started?

i would have thought the NRA guy should have been there, as well as Sporting Shooters NZ and National Shooters reps

The naughty kids weren't invited. I don't actually know how this info got out.

Sounds like it needs to be out! I fail to see how being a member of a club organisation has anything to do with ownership of a firearm.