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Thread: E cat safe/safe room options

  1. #1
    Member canross's Avatar
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    E cat safe/safe room options

    It looks like ultimately I'll be going for my E Category eventually, so I should plan on setting up storage to anticipate it. I know I've written a lot, but hoping to nail down my options, and the devil's in the details on these things.

    So, in considering E category, I'm looking at my options for storage. I understand that ultimately everything comes down to the firearms officer that inspects storage, so will get input from them, but am also looking for the forum's input on what has worked for them, and to see whether anyone thinks the police will accept my plan based on their guidelines.

    My first option is to just buy an E Cat rated safe. For anything the size I want I'm going to be spending the same as a used truck, which I would rather not do. The only pro to the safe is that I can take it with me if I move.




    My second option is to build something. In reading the police storage recommendations ( Firearms storage | New Zealand Police ), I believe that my best option is to renovate a closet in the house to meet the standards for Room Construction (28(1) B). All my proposals are pulled directly from their recommendations.

    In this case I would propose to modify a large inside wall closet to the standards by:

    - Door: Steel body door, or the defined 40mm solid wood door with 16gauge+ steel cladding, rebated edges, hinge security bolts, welded hinge pins and heavy wood frame, or steel frame.

    - Inside walls, ceiling and floor: stapled heavy steel mesh or screwed sheet metal (no definition of substantial is available on the website) or 16mm+ construction ply to the wall studs.

    - Locks: Standard 5 lever mortise lock. For the price I could put in two or three - not a huge difference to me. Since it's the established standard I would probably just use it, as anything I designed would need a locksmith to certify.

    - No windows into the storage area

    - Alarms: I see that they are listed as required. Is this A) a fact written in law? B) Is it required to be installed and monitored by a commercial company? I've searched the government standards that determine the rules but you have to buy access to view government regulations? Bizarre.

    I recognize I may need to find a tradesperson or engineer to sign off on my setup, but feel that if I do get an engineer's signature on my plan and final inspection and do it myself, I could either save a pile of cash, or spend the same amount and buy a stack of tools in the process. I also consider projects like this to be fun, so if it takes me a month of evenings doing it I'm happy with that.

  2. #2
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    One thing that will shock you is the prices of metal, timber and building products in general compared to North America. One of the trade off's of being an island at the bottom of the world
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  3. #3
    Member canross's Avatar
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    Very valid point - I hadn't considered that at all.


    That said, there's always scrap somewhere, and plywood can be glued and screwed, so there's always that.

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    if you need alarm help give me a yell

  5. #5
    Member canross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonetropo View Post
    if you need alarm help give me a yell
    Thanks Gonetropo

    Some decent info on the forum about building steel safes, but very little on modifying rooms. Guess another talk with the constabulary is in order.

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    Alarms. they say, but sure its not in law, but it does help with sign off if you have a alarm fitted, can be monitored by yourself
    Friend had the steel mesh then 20mm ply over-top of that so all you saw was the ply
    Or you could buy a safe, fix that to a wall and then lock the closet with say a deadbolt, or similar
    that way E cat stuff is in the safe and all the other stuff is in the closet. effective making the closet your A cat safe.
    WallyR, 223nut and canross like this.

  7. #7
    Member canross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavarick View Post
    Alarms. they say, but sure its not in law, but it does help with sign off if you have a alarm fitted, can be monitored by yourself
    Friend had the steel mesh then 20mm ply over-top of that so all you saw was the ply
    Or you could buy a safe, fix that to a wall and then lock the closet with say a deadbolt, or similar
    that way E cat stuff is in the safe and all the other stuff is in the closet. effective making the closet your A cat safe.

    If it can be monitored by myself that really helps. Easy enough to install a system to just monitor the safe or just the strong room - power the system and supply a backup battery internally with a door and motion sensor internally so even if they cut their way in it'll still trip. If it's not actually law that gives a lot better ability to work with the AO in sign off.

    I was thinking along the lines what your friend did. In the case of a large closet it could then be repainted to match how it originally looked at only the loss of 40mm of depth/width/height at any point internally, so really wouldn't be noticeable to anyone afterwards.

    If I do have to buy an E cat safe that's a good idea as well, since I can't see myself spending enough to buy the size of E cat safe I'd want!

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    Quote Originally Posted by canross View Post
    My second option is to build something. In reading the police storage recommendations ( Firearms storage | New Zealand Police ), I believe that my best option is to renovate a closet in the house to meet the standards for Room Construction (28(1) B). All my proposals are pulled directly from their recommendations.
    Take their guidance loosely. NZ Police clearly (still) do not understand the law. The terms 'shall' and 'required' can only be used when supported by legislation. Which for the vast majority of their usage on that page, are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by canross View Post
    - Alarms: I see that they are listed as required. Is this A) a fact written in law? B) Is it required to be installed and monitored by a commercial company? I've searched the government standards that determine the rules but you have to buy access to view government regulations? Bizarre.
    No, no legal requirement for an alarm system.

    Are you referring to https://www.standards.govt.nz/? Standards are not government regulations. Unless cited by legislation, are not mandatory requirements.

    Standards are generally voluntary, but can be mandatory when cited in Acts, regulations, or other legislative instruments. Standards may also be referenced in regulations as one means of compliance or as an acceptable solution under those regulations, without being mandatory. Standards are a successful way to bridge government regulation and industry self-regulation. Source: https://www.standards.govt.nz/about-us/
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  9. #9
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    Take your advice from the cops. THEY will be doing the sign off on your licence and security, not some bush lawyer on the internet.

    The whole point of the exercise is strong security for your guns, not being a foreigner starting an argument about police powers or regulations as soon as you step off the aeroplane.

    You will just get on their shit list and they will fuck you around forever over your licence.

  10. #10
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    Have you had a look at this?

    https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def...nts-pol67n.pdf

    Totally useless as anything except general guidance, and for the tehnical details on how to secure fasteners, amount of fasteners, fixing to structure etc etc the detail is vauge at best and none at worst.

    I'm toying around with the same idea at the moment, creating a 'room of stout and secure construction' rather than a 'strongroom' made of blocks. For me the place I now own has a few unique construction methods that make securing the new walls and achieving the markers of 'stout' and 'secure' interesting. In the lack of anything remotely resembling an actual design requirement or structural standard for the build, I'm working to a level of a fairly solid type of attachment such that a fairly solid whack from something heavy more than likely won't leave much of a mark. And I reckon that probably that will be sufficient...

    Back on a practical level the actual door itself is fairly easy, if you can find a bank vault door they can be easily fitted and really aren't that expensive. I can take a few piccies of the ones I have here if you are interested.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by systolic View Post
    Take your advice from the cops. THEY will be doing the sign off on your licence and security, not some bush lawyer on the internet.

    The whole point of the exercise is strong security for your guns, not being a foreigner starting an argument about police powers or regulations as soon as you step off the aeroplane.

    You will just get on their shit list and they will fuck you around forever over your licence.
    Considering that their "advice ' varies from AO to AO and is not supported by legislation....

    Actual lawyers and the courts say very similar things regarding the NZ POLICE'S ability to understand and administer the law. So yeah, let's ignore the courts.....

    So obey the Police or they will commit malicious malfeasance? Sounds like a just society you support.

    How dare we peasants question the Police!?!!
    Last edited by Koshogi; 09-02-2017 at 07:55 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Depending on how soon you are moving, any info might be irrelevant, with the proposed rewriting of the arms act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshogi View Post
    Considering that their "advice ' varies from AO to AO and is not supported by legislation....

    Actual lawyers and the courts say very similar things regarding the NZ POLICE'S ability to understand and administer the law. So yeah, let's ignore the courts.....

    So obey the Police or they will commit malicious malfeasance? Sounds like a just society you support.

    How dare we peasants question the Police!?!!
    So what if advice varies from AO to AO? He only has to deal with his AO.

    Getting all wound up because the arms officer wants you to keep your dangerous weapons properly secured does nothing.

    If the law said I could leave my guns under my bed, I'd still keep them in their big safe in my well locked workshop with the alarm.

    "malicious malfeasance" What the fuck does that mean? Big words to make you look educated?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by systolic View Post
    So what if advice varies from AO to AO? He only has to deal with his AO.

    Getting all wound up because the arms officer wants you to keep your dangerous weapons properly secured does nothing.

    If the law said I could leave my guns under my bed, I'd still keep them in their big safe in my well locked workshop with the alarm.

    "malicious malfeasance" What the fuck does that mean? Big words to make you look educated?
    Ya, who would would want consistency in law? Like that's important.

    Malicious:
    adjective
    1. full of, characterized by, or showing malice; intentionally harmful; spiteful:
    malicious gossip.
    2. Law. vicious, wanton, or mischievous in motivation or purpose.


    Malfeasance:
    noun, Law.
    1. the performance by a public official of an act that is legally unjustified, harmful, or contrary to law; wrongdoing (used especially of an act in violation of a public trust).


    I'm guessing you can put them together, or not...
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshogi View Post
    Ya, who would would want consistency in law? Like that's important.

    Malicious:
    adjective
    1. full of, characterized by, or showing malice; intentionally harmful; spiteful:
    malicious gossip.
    2. Law. vicious, wanton, or mischievous in motivation or purpose.


    Malfeasance:
    noun, Law.
    1. the performance by a public official of an act that is legally unjustified, harmful, or contrary to law; wrongdoing (used especially of an act in violation of a public trust).


    I'm guessing you can put them together, or not...
    I get consistency from my arms officer and, once every ten years, the retired detective who does the security check and speaks to the current girlfriend. That's enough for me.

    I don't really give a shit what other arms officers do. Every time I been to an arms office, auction, or gunshow out of town where they've had arms officers and I've wanted a permit, everything has been fine.

    Some people must just like being the centre of drama and attention.

    I'd rather go shooting than argue with cops.

 

 

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