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Thread: Very interesting food for thought.

  1. #31
    Member Ruff's Avatar
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    You can find a statistic to suits your ends Jason, it still misses the point. I accept you are bound by regulation to test under the German system, but that doesn't surprise me, despite the evidence, hip testing is still extremely widely and generally accepted, I absolutely accept you must do it, I question if it is of any benefit at all.

    Working spaniels and show spaniels are all lumped under one breed remember. As for moving with times, the outdated, ineffective x-ray system which has done nothing to change anything about hip diplasia is now about 4 decades old, my contention is it is about time people looked at the overwhelming facts and moved with the times.

    Here's some more info to consider... (The point of all this is to highlight that there is very little definitive in any way shape or form when it comes to HD.!
    Bad hips and knees: Is it hip dysplasia or a torn cruciate ligament?

    Interesting that this study concludes....


    Wayne H. Riser, W. Harker Rhodes, and Charles D. Newton


    Section One: Theories of Pathogenesis

    Canine hip dysplasia is a complex disease. It is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease. The degree of involvement varies from minute changes in bone structure to total destruction of the hip joint. Investigators have searched intensively for genetic, chemical, and metabolic defects, but the cause has remained obscure.

    Hip dysplasia affects humans and all other domestic mammals. In humans, 1.3 children in 1000 are affected. In dogs the prevalence may run over 50% in large dogs if control measures have not been practiced. Few data are available on the prevalence of hip dysplasia in other mammals, but it is thought to be low. The disease is undoubtedly rare in undomesticated animals.

    No specific genetic pattern of inheritance has been demonstrated in this variable disease. It has been demonstrated that both genetic and environmental influences contribute to development, regardless of the species affected.(15,31, 32,40,74,76) Consequently, the disease has been designated as polygenic or multigenic.(28) As in most polygenic diseases, there are both major and minor causative factors. There is no evidence that a primary defect of bone exists but rather the disease is a failure of the muscles and other soft tissues to hold the hip joint in full congruity.(31,32) This is further supported by the fact that bony dysplasia can be increased, decreased, or prevented by controlling the degree of joint instability and incongruity.(53) No other malformations are associated with the disease.(79) A causal relationship between muscles and soft tissue defects or pathologic changes other than lack of muscle mass or strength has not been established.(40,41)

    Experimentally, hip dysplasia may be produced in many ways.(43,56,74,76,87,88) These include any circumstances that contribute to an unstable hip joint, namely, adductor forces, lack of muscle strength, chemical relaxation of the pelvic soft tissues, traumatic injury to the hip joint, and overloading of the joint by weight. Hip dysplasia is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease.


    What I begin to find as I research more and more is that they reason we see such a low incidence in working breeds is the strength and development of muscle, ligaments etc in having a high level of fitness. Wirehair may have been closer to the truth than I first thought. It may well be that it is not that the working breeds are genetically free of HD, but simply properly developed and fit.

    The fact we know bugger all remains and anyone trying to claim something definitive in its regard is going against all of the scientific information we have at hand.
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  2. #32
    Member Ruff's Avatar
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    It remains an interesting and worthwhile discussion/debate!
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  3. #33
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    It wouldn't even be hard to do a trial. Cross a couple of prone dogs, rare some each way. The only real issue is how hit and miss HD is, what is the earliest age they can be tested for it?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wirehunt View Post
    It wouldn't even be hard to do a trial. Cross a couple of prone dogs, rare some each way. The only real issue is how hit and miss HD is, what is the earliest age they can be tested for it?
    I think that after 50 years it i safe to assume it's not that simple. My concern is, it may be... perhaps it is being complicated beyond recognition... right now, who knows?????
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    Last edited by kawhia; 24-05-2016 at 09:18 AM.

  6. #36
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    None of that makes any change to what I have stated for me. I've said my bit.

    NZVA? No vested interest there.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wirehunt View Post
    I've got pure breds EB What weights are the show ring dogs generally kept at, and what fitness level?
    @Wirehunt, the quote of the day around the show ring is 'fit for purpose'...I laugh myself silly when I hear that...there is the quantitive 'show condition' slogan...I have had judges berate my dogs for not being in show condition (in other words they did not have enough condition...ie not fat, all muscle etc)...I told a judge that my bitch had taken a mob of steers off the crop that morning before the show when he told me she was not in show condition...he replied I do not care what she does or how many cattle she moves she is not in show condition...you should see some of the Labradors...went to a show in Taupo last year...one judge from the US favoured the more 'fit for purpose' type (of Labrador)...you get a real picture of just how we have arrived at the working and the show types...I believe, for the pedigree dogs, it is very sad testament...I have shown my dogs to prove that a gundog can be a trialist and rough shooters dog but still be correct to standard I have had a challenge point refused on account of the judge not knowing what breed my Epagneul Breton male was...to be fair he had probably never seen one before...

    Which has really nothing to do with HD...
    Last edited by EeeBees; 24-05-2016 at 07:01 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by EeeBees View Post
    @Wirehunt, the quote of the day around the show ring is 'fit for purpose'...I laugh myself silly when I hear that...there is the quantitive 'show condition' slogan...I have had judges berate my dogs for not being in show condition (in other words they did not have enough condition...ie not fat, all muscle etc)...I told a judge that my bitch had taken a mob of steers off the crop that morning before the show when he told me she was not in show condition...he replied I do not care what she does or how many cattle she moves she is not in show condition...you should see some of the Labradors...went to a show in Taupo last year...one judge from the US favoured the more 'fit for purpose' type (of Labrador)...you get a real picture of just how we have arrived at the working and the show types...I believe, for the pedigree dogs, it is very sad testament...I have shown my dogs to prove that a gundog can be a trialist and rough shooters dog but still be correct to standard I have had a challenge point refused on account of the judge not knowing what breed my Epagneul Breton male was...to be fair he had probably never seen one before...

    Which has really nothing to do with HD...
    In the vast majority of instances, if it is in a show ring it is not fit for purpose. How long would Thoroughbreds last as "fit for purpose" if we changed the Melbourne Cup to the horses simply walking into the birdcage having someone pick the prettiest one and we all go home. Performance of any performance animal must always be the first benchmark. The reason we have so many of these genetic anomalies in some many breeds is because they are predominantly judged to a written standard with no performance needed. It's an absolute catastrophe for just about any animal a written standard has ever been applied to. Meanwhile... the people working their animals have few problems, it's no rocket science. Showing of dogs as a benchmark of any kind should be considered fraud.
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  9. #39
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    The fact we know bugger all remains and anyone trying to claim something definitive in its regard is going against all of the scientific information we have at hand.
    bieng a conspiracy theorist from way back i wonder if there is any combined vet will to solve hd it must be quite a money spinner??
    if as you say ruff xrays are practicly useless in diagnosing it i imagine like doctors vets are welded to a collective theory and practise with little financial gain or will to be the whistle blower.

  10. #40
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    the surprising result was the irish wolfhound,such a low percentage for such a large breed. even allowing for variance in human interpretation of xrays, what is the explanation for the difference in breed results other than the fact their is a genetic element?are there any other conclusions? i was surprised at the NZ brittany result although this was based on 2 dogs. as my own dog was recently evaluated(the xrays were sent to australia for evaluation)he scored 1 in each of the six components for a total of 6 against a stated breed average of 11.9.all 4 generations of ancestors have been hipscored and all have been rated good or better.

  11. #41
    Member Ruff's Avatar
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    Very good questions! (Bear in mind I am deliberately being tongue in cheek with some of my ideas and am not, deliberately, trying to be a smart-arse)


    I don't think when they train vets they take the students into a darkened soundproof room and explain the scam they have run over HD for years). So I do believe many vets will believe their training and believe what they are doing is valid. I come from the opposite side of things, instead of medical I am a behaviorist and I will honestly state much of what is taught in vet schools regarding behavior is absolute hogwash. Most of us will be aware the majority of vets are the worst source for training advice. I mention that just to point out that they are not God.

    I do believe the X-Ray can and does show HD once a dog is effected and debilitated by it, we can find the x-rays of those online. What an x-ray will never show, though I believe is critical is the cartilage which surrounds the hip joint and the muscle and ligaments required to hold the ball into any socket joint, HD or not. What I question is whether X-Rays show any relevance to potential to be effected by HD or any potential to pass it on or not. There seems to two definite trains of thought... 1) It is Hereditary and 2 it is not... who do we believe?

    The question regarding breed averages did require some thought. I don;t believe the breed averages show any genetic hereditary trait. We could randomly pick 4 different groups of multi breed dogs, average them and come up with differing numbers. There could well be commonality within breeds without it being hereditary. I wasn't surprised to see Bull Mastiffs at the top of the heap, one of the heaviest dogs around. The wolfhound while being a very leggy and large dog overall is not disproportionately heavy to it's overall size.

    Keep in mind I am not saying "This is the last word on HD"... quite the opposite... it seems no one can give any definitive answers. Maybe it is my Scottish background but I'm buggered if I'll fork out cash for a testing system that has shown no value or success over 4 decades. Even more so when I have never seen a single example of it in my chosen breed in over 35 or more years of working with them.
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  12. #42
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    What is 'cocker rage’?
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  13. #43
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    Deleted. Fish in a barrel
    Last edited by Pointer; 24-06-2016 at 08:55 PM.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by EeeBees View Post
    What is 'cocker rage’?
    A spaniel whose owner doesn't hit very much.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruff View Post
    You can find a statistic to suits your ends Jason, it still misses the point. I accept you are bound by regulation to test under the German system, but that doesn't surprise me, despite the evidence, hip testing is still extremely widely and generally accepted, I absolutely accept you must do it, I question if it is of any benefit at all.

    Working spaniels and show spaniels are all lumped under one breed remember. As for moving with times, the outdated, ineffective x-ray system which has done nothing to change anything about hip diplasia is now about 4 decades old, my contention is it is about time people looked at the overwhelming facts and moved with the times.

    Here's some more info to consider... (The point of all this is to highlight that there is very little definitive in any way shape or form when it comes to HD.!
    Bad hips and knees: Is it hip dysplasia or a torn cruciate ligament?

    Interesting that this study concludes....


    Wayne H. Riser, W. Harker Rhodes, and Charles D. Newton


    Section One: Theories of Pathogenesis

    Canine hip dysplasia is a complex disease. It is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease. The degree of involvement varies from minute changes in bone structure to total destruction of the hip joint. Investigators have searched intensively for genetic, chemical, and metabolic defects, but the cause has remained obscure.

    Hip dysplasia affects humans and all other domestic mammals. In humans, 1.3 children in 1000 are affected. In dogs the prevalence may run over 50% in large dogs if control measures have not been practiced. Few data are available on the prevalence of hip dysplasia in other mammals, but it is thought to be low. The disease is undoubtedly rare in undomesticated animals.

    No specific genetic pattern of inheritance has been demonstrated in this variable disease. It has been demonstrated that both genetic and environmental influences contribute to development, regardless of the species affected.(15,31, 32,40,74,76) Consequently, the disease has been designated as polygenic or multigenic.(28) As in most polygenic diseases, there are both major and minor causative factors. There is no evidence that a primary defect of bone exists but rather the disease is a failure of the muscles and other soft tissues to hold the hip joint in full congruity.(31,32) This is further supported by the fact that bony dysplasia can be increased, decreased, or prevented by controlling the degree of joint instability and incongruity.(53) No other malformations are associated with the disease.(79) A causal relationship between muscles and soft tissue defects or pathologic changes other than lack of muscle mass or strength has not been established.(40,41)

    Experimentally, hip dysplasia may be produced in many ways.(43,56,74,76,87,88) These include any circumstances that contribute to an unstable hip joint, namely, adductor forces, lack of muscle strength, chemical relaxation of the pelvic soft tissues, traumatic injury to the hip joint, and overloading of the joint by weight. Hip dysplasia is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease.


    What I begin to find as I research more and more is that they reason we see such a low incidence in working breeds is the strength and development of muscle, ligaments etc in having a high level of fitness. Wirehair may have been closer to the truth than I first thought. It may well be that it is not that the working breeds are genetically free of HD, but simply properly developed and fit.

    The fact we know bugger all remains and anyone trying to claim something definitive in its regard is going against all of the scientific information we have at hand.
    Your highlighted bit is due to the fact that the heritable portion of HD is polygenetic, not the fact that there is no genetic connection. That makes it more compicated than a simple "if you have this (single) gene you will get HD": and hence not fully understood - yet.
    As far as HD testing, it is also just a case of science working like it should and improvements being made- the Penn hip score method is now considered superior for assessing breeding dogs.

 

 

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