Thread: Very interesting food for thought.

Originally Posted by ethos

Your highlighted bit is due to the fact that the heritable portion of HD is polygenetic, not the fact that there is no genetic connection. That makes it more compicated than a simple "if you have this (single) gene you will get HD": and hence not fully understood - yet.
As far as HD testing, it is also just a case of science working like it should and improvements being made- the Penn hip score method is now considered superior for assessing breeding dogs.

Understood and agreed. However, I would make the point the PENNHIP system is superior by virtue of the fact the first system had no use whatsoever, which still leaves us to ascertain to what level PENNHIP offers that much more. Time will tell if the dogs improve, but I doubt that can happen when so many dogs are labeled as champions without having to do as much as a 15 minute work out on the hill. If the field and the hill is the test, weaknesses will soon be apparent and culled by the astute breeder.

If you work a working dog then the field will test its soundness, if you do not work the dog then you need a vet to tell you that what you are doing is OK, and that is not completely reliable as it requires assumptions and predictions... The hill does not. They do or they don't!

A number of environmental factors can affect the incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs - NVH

I really like this research, as far as the breed I am involved in I would be far more concerned with elbow issues rather thank hip problems, while the average hip score in Labradors has come down over the years this doesn't guarantee that all puppies will be free of the genetic part of the equation, as yet there is no DNA test for that, I don't use Penn hip and am unlikely to do so , I know people do use it and are convinced it is the best thing ever however I have asked for but not yet received any INDEPENDENT research that isn't either done by Penn hip or commissioned by Penn hip that Penn hip is in fact better or that Penn hip scored dogs do then go onto produce puppies with a lower incidence of HD . However if someone here can point me in that direction I would be happy to have a read.

Andrew Worth did a NZstudy on comparing methods: An assessment of the agreement between the New Zealand Veterinary Association Hip Dysplasia Scoring System and the PennHIP Distraction Index in Ger... - PubMed - NCBI

CLINICAL RELEVANCE:

The low level of agreement between NZVA and PennHIP results in the same dog precludes them being used interchangeably to guide breeding decisions. The higher heritability of distraction-index measurement in previous studies suggests that it (Pennhip) is a better selection tool for breeding dogs when CHD is present within a population. The advantage of a hip-extended ventrodorsal view is its low cost and widespread availability but comparisons between individuals may not be accurate due to the poor sensitivity and the presence of false negatives.

Ruff, no argument that actual performance is a good yardstick , but there can be significant variation in which dogs will still work well even with poor hips, which they can pass to their progeny In order to try and eliminate HD scientific testing - preferably detecting early- must still have its place.

Originally Posted by ethos

Andrew Worth did a NZstudy on comparing methods: An assessment of the agreement between the New Zealand Veterinary Association Hip Dysplasia Scoring System and the PennHIP Distraction Index in Ger... - PubMed - NCBI

Ruff, no argument that actual performance is a good yardstick , but there can be significant variation in which dogs will still work well even with poor hips, which they can pass to their progeny In order to try and eliminate HD scientific testing - preferably detecting early- must still have its place.

Agreed Ethos but that requires falling to the side of the genetic component. Which even some of the vets seem to be split on.

Originally Posted by ethos

Andrew Worth did a NZstudy on comparing methods: An assessment of the agreement between the New Zealand Veterinary Association Hip Dysplasia Scoring System and the PennHIP Distraction Index in Ger... - PubMed - NCBI




Ruff, no argument that actual performance is a good yardstick , but there can be significant variation in which dogs will still work well even with poor hips, which they can pass to their progeny In order to try and eliminate HD scientific testing - preferably detecting early- must still have its place.

So what they are saying is they THINK it might be better, unfortunately for the $600 odd dollars it costs to do Penn Hip, I would want more than we think it is better, Penn hip has been around for many years yet there is still only a very small percentage of breeders doing Penn hip, I would like to know why, I would also like to know if, as I asked in the original post do the Penn hipped dogs then go on to produce sounder offspring, in theory they should....... but do they ?

Originally Posted by Ducdog

So what they are saying is they THINK it might be better, unfortunately for the $600 odd dollars it costs to do Penn Hip, I would want more than we think it is better, Penn hip has been around for many years yet there is still only a very small percentage of breeders doing Penn hip, I would like to know why, I would also like to know if, as I asked in the original post do the Penn hipped dogs then go on to produce sounder offspring, in theory they should....... but do they ?

Very good question and from the little I have seen the jury is still out.