Thread: .223 for the Roar

Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

I would like to see a stag that could survive four .270 shots to the boiler room, a.270 to the neck, and a cut throat. That would be a stag to see. I thought you would finish up with strangling it with your swanndri.

I have thought about this matter, but I have shot deer in the roar before with a .222's and black powder .44-40's and whatnot, I can't see having too much trouble killing a stag with a .223. Unless I meet your immortal beast..! I just havn't used the 70 grain Speer or the 45g TSX.

Alas I wasn't wearing a swandri that day.
While it does sound like a bungi tale it's accurate.
Personally I'm happy to put the 223 away over the roar and use something with more energy.
If you can make it work I'm genuinely stoked for you! Post up your story after and I'll buy you a beer.

@JohnDuxbury…

The Speer 70gr is my goto bullet in the .223 when chasing goats and deer. I’ve been using it regularly for about 2 years I guess.

I’ll echo @Tahr’s comments and tell you not to use it for shoulder shots on big stags. I would definitely not want that bullet connecting with the humerus or scapula after heavy shoulder muscles as I couldn’t in all honestly say it would give you the penetration you’d ideally want.

I’ve shot a good number of yearling reds, mature hinds, some very heavy / hairy billy goats and several fallow in recent months, but in all instances I’ve deliberately used a different point of aim - high neck (atlas joint), the crease shot when quartering away, front brisket with deer standing facing me, between the shoulders looking down on the animal. I’m struggling to think of a single instance in any of those shots where the bullet has exited. But in all instances it has been a very fast (mostly instantaneous) kill.

It’s a fantastic wee bullet when used in this manner but definitely not a good choice for a pinning shot through both shoulders. Not something I would take with me if I anticipated some pressured, close range snapshots, I don’t want the 308 for that.

What velocity have you got the 70 grain Speer going in your rifle?

We had this conversation on here a little while ago and I said I would look at the raw Chrono data because I know I had to up the velocity to validate the drop I was getting at 300m, it was quite a lot less than I thought it would be. I actually messaged Spear asking them if they had got the BC right on that bullet but it never got resolved.

anyway I never did go and find the data so give me a little while and I’ll see if I’ve still got it on the one laptop. Note that it is a properly worked up but nonetheless quite hot load. Also 20” barrel.

Either way the adjusted velocity used to match the drop data (using Strelok trajectory validation) is good enough for me to happily place that bullet right where I want it at 250-300m so all’s good. Last time out I was sent on a goat dog tucker mission with instructions to only head shoot and I had no difficulty knocking them over at commendable ranges so I’m happy with the trajectory validation.

With the 70grn and 20" I would be looking for in the 2,900 fps range. But less won't affect the terminal performance much, just the trajectory.

I've only got 2730 fps to work with, with the powders I have.
My fastest load is 2784 with a different powder, but the accuracy goes to hell. (The most accurate is 2677 fps.)

But seriously, I am shooting things at less than a hundred metres, and average would be around 25 metres. I don't really have a trajectory.

Righto. I'm using ADI 2208, a tad above the max book load. I took it to the point of a slight ejector swipe on the cartridge head and then backed off a touch. ADI brass, bullet seated longer than book specs.



When I shot the drop tests, with a 100m zero I was seeing a lot less drop at 200m and 300m that I expected. So I ended up increasing the velocity to 3133fps but I also changed the BC to 0.241 from the published 0.214, which I thought might have been a typo. This is what I asked Speer about but the tech there wasn't convinced. However I remember looking at a couple of other bullets like the Sierra equivalent and they were more like 0.24 so that's what I selected.

Works for me. Dead on at 300m, smoke-a-goat.

Well if it were me, I’d be choosing the 70gr Speer because of the sectional density. Stags are thick through the engine room, so I’d want as much penetration as I could get. A 50-53gr Barnes may penetrate further, but my gut feel is the wound channel of the 70gr will be wider and bleed faster.

Originally Posted by Flyblown

Righto. I'm using ADI 2208, a tad above the max book load. I took it to the point of a slight ejector swipe on the cartridge head and then backed off a touch. ADI brass, bullet seated longer than book specs.

Attachment 193468

When I shot the drop tests, with a 100m zero I was seeing a lot less drop at 200m and 300m that I expected. So I ended up increasing the velocity to 3133fps but I also changed the BC to 0.241 from the published 0.214, which I thought might have been a typo. This is what I asked Speer about but the tech there wasn't convinced. However I remember looking at a couple of other bullets like the Sierra equivalent and they were more like 0.24 so that's what I selected.

Works for me. Dead on at 300m, smoke-a-goat.

...you've got a 16 inch barrel? I cant get anywhere near those velocities with 2208 and my 20 inch barrel. You must have a tighter chamber or bore. With 26 grains of 2208 I get 2784fps. I can get 27.5 grains flush with the top of the case mouth and then I have to heavily compress it, which is doable but it was creeping out a bit later....so I took them apart again. And this is with .223 brass, not the ex mil ADI stuff, (which I understood has less capacity?)
Whats your charge weight for the 3133 fps ?

Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

I sort of want to use the 70 speers...

Use 'em, they will kill anything you can kill with the others. Sounds like you've got respectable speed, you know they shoot, and you know enough about the required shot placement. And its probably more comforting knowing you're throwing 70gns at a close in stag thats all rutted up, then a teeny weeny 45gn, to maybe a 55. They would never shoot ok in my rifle, thats why I went back to the 60's.

The 70gr is too soft for 100% reliability on big stag shoulders @Hunter_Nick, that’s my take on it. The softness is a positive for engine room shots angled in, avoiding the heavy muscle and bone, but even after avoiding all but a rib bone or brisket the bullets I’ve recovered have been in bits ‘n’ pieces and just the shank remaining.

Technically, according to Speer, its a varmint bullet, these days it’s sold as the “Varmint Soft Point”. But its definitely stouter than a V-Max and Speer say it is “controlled expansion”. (It’s not, it’s just a bit harder than a proper varmint bullet.) So I sectioned one for a look see, whilst the jacket is thin the lead compound is harder than a V-Max, at least in my rudimentary scratch test comparison. So I wouldn’t call it controlled expansion, whereas the bonded Speer Gold Dot I definitely would.

It’s an old school bullet that has been around for years. My yankee cuz put me onto it, he told me that originally it was a popular whitetail bullet before the days of “controlled expansion” and maximum penetration become the fad and everyone wanted bonded bullets and monolithics and big exit holes. I switched to it because it was cheap, available in decent quantities and unfussy, and I prefer softer bullets that mushroom easily and partially fragment.

Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

...you've got a 16 inch barrel? I cant get anywhere near those velocities with 2208 and my 20 inch barrel. You must have a tighter chamber or bore. With 26 grains of 2208 I get 2784fps. I can get 27.5 grains flush with the top of the case mouth and then I have to heavily compress it, which is doable but it was creeping out a bit later....so I took them apart again. And this is with .223 brass, not the ex mil ADI stuff, (which I understood has less capacity?)
Whats your charge weight for the 3133 fps ?

No, I have a 20” barrel (see above).

Charge weight is 26.2gr 2208, 2.240” COAL so longer than the book spec by some margin, so this load isn’t compressed. Remember the 3133fps is an artificially increased velocity to meet the drop tested ballistics (along with the >BC).

Book speeds for the 24” barrel are about the same as my chrono values with the 20”, so a bit faster than I expected but not dramatically so. The Howa barrels have - for me - been faster than other manufacturers from the get go, and get faster as they break in after a couple hundred shots. This is evident not just with the .223 but also my two 6mm rifles and my 6.5mm, they are all faster than their Tikka counterparts for the same approximate load.

Also the brass is Aussie bought Thales retail stuff, not the ex-military spec stuff. It’s stamped ADI but the headstamp isn’t the normal milsurp style, plus the H2O capacity is in line with other non-mil brands. I have a heap of military spec ADI 7.62 brass here and that’s a totally different kettle of fish to normal .308 brass.

And lastly, this batch of 2208 is definitely faster than the previous batch I had, because when I first loaded the 308 with it I got an immediate POI change (higher) and had to re-do the drop tests. It resulted in a re-validated MV about 50fps more than before.

Shot loads of roaring stags with Hornady 55s did a pretty good job mind you Te urewera stags .

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

well as said earlier.the 50 grn ttsx is awesome.....
Alex Gale was using 45grn gs custom monos in his 22-250 before they were popular too....the deer havent changed any. light n fast works if you poke em in resonable place. the faster the better with monos.

The Graf Boys used a 22-250.

Use the 70gr Speer. I used them for years out of a 222 and had no issues with stags.
It sounds like you know the rules, aim small, avoid the near side shoulder blade.
You will be astounded how well stays die with such a little projectile.