44-40 Lee Size die issue for Pistol

I shoot and reload for 44-40 in a Rossi Puma 92. Started with borrowed Lyman dies now returned. Have my own Lee standard 3 die set I bought used. Perfectly fine for my rifle. However...

At Ted's in the weekend I picked up a nice Uberti Cattleman Pistol. Loading up some rounds to develop a load I started with used Starline brass from TM. Set the Lee dies per usual, I.e. contact shell holder for sizing die then add a half turn. When sizing/decapping I can see the rim is firm against the shell holder at full pressure.

When the sized case is inserted into the cylinder chamber, whether empty or loaded, it will not freely and completely insert. Yes I scrubbed the cylinder bores out. Yes a new unfired Starline case installs just fine and can easily be withdrawn with fingers. Same if new case is loaded.

The resized reloaded cases will stop the cylinder rotating when the first one comes up against the very slight shelf as it rotates into next but one position from the firing pin.

There is a gap the exact thickness of my thumbnail between the cylinder face and the case rim on the reloaded brass. No space at all with new unfired brass. If I press the reloaded brass in as firm as I can with fingers at the loading gate, it still jams the cylinder and requires a tap on the ejector rod to get out.

All of which suggests to me that the resizing die is not, for some reason, returning the fired cases to spec. There is no issue with chambering these loads in the Rossi.

So, maybe the Lee Die is a tad worn. Maybe it was out of spec from factory new. Any other views welcome.

If anyone around New Plymouth has a die I could run some brass thru to check please PM me.

Otherwise I guess I'm in for a replacement set. Bugger!

I don't think it's the die it's the fact that the chamber they were last shot in is larger than the revolver cylinder chambers in the case head area of the brass the sizing die can't size that's below the top of the shell holder.

I would try popping the cases that are problematic into your shell holder and measure with a feeler gauge under them to figure out how much it takes to jam the rim to the top of the shell holder groove.
Take the decapping pin out of the die then size with either the feeler gauge or a shim of the same thickness. This might just get enough sized to work depending on how much slop is in the shell holder fit.

If not you could also try modifying the shell holder to be thinner so the die can come further down the brass. Do this by grinding down the top of the shell holder.

Just remember dies only return brass to spec in areas they can reach so brass will not always be interchangeable between guns if the chambers are different in the case head area as this area can't be resized (well it can be but isn't in a standard set up).

Later thought; given how thin and easy to size 44-40 brass is to size I'd be tempted to size the brass sitting on top of the shell holder, this will allow sizing all the way to the rim, then knock the brass out through the top of the die with a rod. This'll get it below spec to start with. Headspaces on the rim so no risk of over sizing that I can think of.

Will rounds fired in your rifle fit in pistol...if so fire problematic rounds through rifle first and HOPEFULLY the brass will then work for you

All good thoughts/suggestions gentlemen, thank you.
FWIW the shell holder is contacting the bottom of the die. So if the die is to spec then it is that tiny bit covered by the shell holder itself that is the problem. As @Makros suggests, sizing on top of the shell holder would prove the point. What this reminded me of is that I have a Lee Loader in 44-40 on the shelf. It might be worth seeing if it will do better as being a pistol cal it fully resizes the case- I think.
Finally a mate is bringing his sizing die to the range today. He bought the other cattleman of the matched pair and his reloads don't have the problem. But, previously shot in his rifle.
I'll get to play with my Lee hand press and range reloading kit- yay!

And yes, I do have a few cases shot in my rifle sitting in my to-clean bin so can try those.

Will post an update...

Cheers. J.

Greetings @Jhon,
The 44 WCF (later .44-40) is a very old cartridge and the chambers can be all over the place. I would be reasonably sure that your problem is an oversize section on the case where the die can not reach. This happens with belted cases as well. As mentioned above size the case with the case sitting on top of the shell holder and drive the case out with a rod. You may have only have to do this once. Definitely do NOT grind the shell holder, it will likely wreck it. You should consider keeping the cases separate for the two firearms and a different head stamp would help with this. Lastly they are 44 WCF and not 44 mag and the cases are thin so I suggest keeping your loads down to the lighter end of the data. Your brass will last longer.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @Jhon,
The 44 WCF (later .44-40) is a very old cartridge and the chambers can be all over the place. I would be reasonably sure that your problem is an oversize section on the case where the die can not reach. This happens with belted cases as well. As mentioned above size the case with the case sitting on top of the shell holder and drive the case out with a rod. You may have only have to do this once. Definitely do NOT grind the shell holder, it will likely wreck it. You should consider keeping the cases separate for the two firearms and a different head stamp would help with this. Lastly they are 44 WCF and not 44 mag and the cases are thin so I suggest keeping your loads down to the lighter end of the data. Your brass will last longer.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Thanks Gramps, good advice..Ive done a lot of research on 44-40 with great input from a certain forum member who is like a cat with 9 lives - im sure you'll know who. Anyway, this is my first venture into Pistol.

You are absolutely correct. Mate and I at the range today, him with the other of the pair. He loaded his rounds on a Dillon, no issues there in either Pistol. Mine, resized in a Lee press with Lee dies would not chamber fully in either if resizing from rifle. New brass no problem. Brass shot prior in Pistol no problem. I loaded at the range with a Lee hand press and that gave excellent visibility of the amount of brass not resized as it is covered by the shellholder.

Mate does not have a 44-40 Dillon calibre conversion kit for 44-40 but finds 45 Colt.works. I have 45 ACP and will try that tomorrow. I have a 44-40 Dillon Conversion kit on the way. The Dillon plate is like 50% of the thickness.of a Lee.shell holder so running all the Pistol designated brass thru is first step.

Anyway I agree on not grinding the Lee Shell holder. If done properly I suspect it would work but they are like hens teeth to find, a #14, and I only have the one.

Sizing on top of the shellholder is certainly an option and I'll try that..PITA driving the case out tho one by one.

Anyway, the good news is the Uberti shoots just fine. I'm loading old Dupont Hi Skor 800X - what a bitch that is to feed through a powder measure. Start load is 8.0gn. Max is 8.8gn. I did an incremental ladder in .2g..I stopped.shooting them above 8.2gn which was crisp enough at around 830fps. Thats not the most forgiving of handles on that thing lol, especially after my Shadow II..Pretty accurate tho. No problem ringing the gong dead centre at 35m.

Thanks again.

Update..took delivery of a Dillon Conversion kit for 44-40 today. Set it up and voila! Resized cases not shot in the Uberti seat perfectly now. Not entirely a surprise as my mate loads for the other Pistol of the pair in his Dillon using a 45 Colt shell plate which works just fine..so skimming the Lee Shellholder to thin it down to the same thickness as the Dillon calibre conversion plate where it holds the shell would also be a solution. Seeing as #14 Lee Shell holders are about as rare as a Weaver #71 base mount I'm reluctant to mess with the one I have..lol..not that I need to now.

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Update..took delivery of a Dillon Conversion kit for 44-40 today. Set it up and voila! Resized cases not shot in the Uberti seat perfectly now. Not entirely a surprise as my mate loads for the other Pistol of the pair in his Dillon using a 45 Colt shell plate which works just fine..so skimming the Lee Shellholder to thin it down to the same thickness as the Dillon calibre conversion plate where it holds the shell would also be a solution. Seeing as #14 Lee Shell holders are about as rare as a Weaver #71 base mount I'm reluctant to mess with the one I have..lol..not that I need to now.

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@Jhon, Reloaders have #14 Lee shellholders in stock for $16. They aren't rare. Take to them with a belt sander safe in the knowledge they're easy to replace.

@Jhon, dare I say it but Gun City also has the Weaver #71 base mount in stock.

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Originally Posted by Makros

@Jhon, dare I say it but Gun City also has the Weaver #71 base mount in stock.

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Rang them, they have the ubiquitous 71A, not the 71. Unless you can spot different

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Rang them, they have the ubiquitous 71A, not the 71. Unless you can spot different

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Online they don't list the 71A, just the 71 and in stock. Perhaps this is the 71A listed incorrectly though.

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Originally Posted by Makros

Online they don't list the 71A, just the 71 and in stock. Perhaps this is the 71A listed incorrectly though.

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Yes I think thats exactly it. Serious Shooters the same. Bought a 71, received a 71A. At $13 not too fussed but that bit of Alphabet makes all the diff.

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Originally Posted by Makros

@Jhon, Reloaders have #14 Lee shellholders in stock for $16. They aren't rare. Take to them with a belt sander safe in the knowledge they're easy to replace.

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Cheers, I will when I got into 44-40 a couple or three yrs ago I searched the country for one. These things come and go. Why I throw nothing out lol.

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Cheers, I will when I got into 44-40 a couple or three yrs ago I searched the country for one. These things come and go. Why I throw nothing out lol.

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Same around about the same time. I ended up paying an outrageous price to ship a couple odd ball ones from the States.