I have.. the old batch gets similar velocity but high pressure signs on brass and sticky bolt lifts.
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@Puffin Yes I went back to find what you said in your post and I think that may have contributed for sure. However this brass is on its 6th load (anneald on the 5th) and I would have thought to see ejector prints disappear by now if it was just the new case dimensions. I have only ever neck sized this brass and bumped the shoulder a couple of thou, head spacing on loaded rounds feels fine, no weight to close bolt or wiping on them when extracted unfired.
There is nothing else obvious that I can see and with the new batch of powder the pressure signs have gone which leads me to believe that was the sole cause.
Regardless of resolving that issue I dont think I will stray from RL16 now as 2209 may match it in accuracy with a little more load developement but will never match its speed.
Thats interesting , RE the maybe out of spec powder batch of 2209 , and Old Vit powder , I am still using a lot of OLD ADI 2208 powder from rusty cans that are around 18-20 yrs old , still GOOD .
Storage has to be really cool and dry, plus dont have your can in a warm room when youre reloading, or sitting around opened during the process. But even properly-stored, it will change over time and can only be compared to itself, ie it is whatever it is. I still use 20yr-old cans of IMR, still work, but I will get fresh, when the opportunity arises, and I bet I'll be happy with a modern improved powder
This thread has been awesome thankyou.
Big thanks to Gibo for the 130gr Berger VLD hunting bullet samples!
Loaded a few up today for testing. From what Ive been told and what I have read this Berger bullet design likes to be seated very close to the lands or even touch for them to group at their potential.
In my rifle this came with a couple of hiccups.. firstly the seating depth of 5 thou off my lands only put about 75 thou (2mm) in the neck which meant not a lot of neck tension and it made it very hard to seat them concentrically. Alongside my other chosen bullets it has a much shorter bearing surface from top of the boat tail to the ogive which also means less generated pressure and more powder room in the case.
https://preview.ibb.co/dZaEHz/20180907_074611.jpg
Left to right: 130gr Berger VLD, 136gr Lapua Scenar L, 130gr Sierra TMK, 123gr Lapua Scenar
https://preview.ibb.co/gyagEe/IMG_20180907_WA0007.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/jbXiSz/IMG_20180907_WA0013.jpg
It also put them at the absolute maximum mag length which had the tips getting caught under the feed ramp.
It would require a small grind if I wanted to feed them from the mag.
https://preview.ibb.co/n6ALqK/20180907_104012.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/ejT1xz/20180907_102603.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/nr5H4e/20180907_111005.jpg
So once happy with that I put my same 44gr of RL16 behind them as I use with the 130gr TMK and the CCI BM-4 primers and put it over the chrono.
As expected with less bearing surface and more space under the projectile the pressure and velocity was slightly lower than my TMK loads.
https://preview.ibb.co/e9NaqK/20180907_103034.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/iGM1VK/20180907_104639.jpg
I bump the load up to 44.4gr hoping to get closer to the 2910 -2920fps which the 136gr Lapua and the Sierra TMKs seem to respond best to in my rifle and took 5 rounds to the 100y range.
There was a light wind but it was consistent not gusting but as usual I put 5 rounds of my control 130gr TMK loads on paper to check conditions and warm the barrel (and because I never get sick of seeing them do this) Note: the barrel had a few fouling shots over the chrono.
:thumbsup:
https://preview.ibb.co/jiHEje/20180907_164455.jpg
The velocities for this groups were 2898, 2904, 2892, 2890, 2893 and there were faint shiny ejector marks so Id call it a max load.
https://preview.ibb.co/htPAPe/20180907_160126.jpg
Not the best group by any means but I can't help but feel I was responsible in limiting its performance with my throat mod. What works for some bullets clearly doesnt work for others.
Sure I could probably work up a load that may shoot them better, different powders etc or even go against Berger trends and seat them deeper but Im not sure Ill get the same consistent results as the TMK and Lapua bullet offerings which even before fine tuning a load recipee still punched sub moa groups at 100y.
I have 3 VLDs left so maybe Ill load them tomorrow and seat them with a 50 thou just and 44gr to see how they respond.
My 130 berger load is way off the lands. Short magbox on my mod 7 is a prick in that way. Shoots good though so dont be scared to jump the feckers
Since when do bergers shoot best closest to the lands? I thought you were supposed to check them at 20 thou intervals right back to 120 thou jump or so?
In all honesty I thought they were a projectile knows to not mind abit of jump
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I dont have a lot of trigger time with Bergers, I ran them in my .338 Whisper as 300gr subs but that about the extent of my experience with this brand. The info I got was general online consensus and from a friend who shoots them (well).
Lets hope you thought right.. Ill give them another crack tomorrow with a bit of jump.
QUOTE=Smiddy;743466]....In all honesty I thought they were a projectile knows to not mind abit of jump [/QUOTE]
On the their website they give a lot of information about their various bullet designs. This is some of their info on the VLD. VLD: Making it Shoot | Berger Bullets
I loaded the last three and seated them back another 50 thou so 60 thou jump to lands which cycle through the mag perfectly.
Take it for what it is (3 round group) but they didnt shoot any worse and if I had to put money on a guess of what two more rounds would have done Id say they were better loaded this way.
https://preview.ibb.co/iwrh5U/20180908_135058.jpg
The first shot was the far left and the following two walked to center. I didnt put a cold bore shot through but also haven't cleaned it since yesterday's groups so that may account for the 1st shot running wide.
Im sure I could work a load for these should I ever want to use them but after reading about inconsistent hunting results with either explosive results or penciling right through with no terminal damage at the same range and on the same game Im not sure if Id trust them. Even reading that Berger link above doesnt install a lot of confidence in me... they basically had reservations about marketing them as a hunting bullet from the start. While the jacket is a little thicker than some target bullets there is no thicker base or tip to control expansion more consistently.
The tiny hollow point suggests to me this is the reason for pass throughs with little damage, unless it contacts bone at longer range shots Id be surprised if it opens up much at all.
Love to hear reports from guys running these bullets on game. What are your experiences with them?
My powder is just stored in a damp shed , so that did not HELP it , still OK
Thank you so much for the great write up.... I really appreciated it... it will get read again.... and again.
I have a 6.5 Creedmoor with a 26" barrel and are just getting into reloading .. accuracy out to about 600m is my goal... limited by my eye sight more than anything else.
I had been looking where to start with powders and projectiles... I wish to try the 147 gn ELDs and after reading your comment..... "if your barrel is longer and you want to shoot the 140 + gr pills I'd go to RL26. You will get scorching velocities and much lower pressures." I think I know which powder I will use first up.
Cheers
Round two of my 6.5 Creedmoor journey.
I re-chambered a 20" long 1-8" twist light profile Trueflite Ultra Match barrel in creed for my Desert Tech SRS A1 rifle the was previously chambered in .260Rem by the late great Robbie Tiffen that will be my light weight walk about rig.
I have another heavy fluted 26" Lothar Walther barrel in .260Rem for the Desert tech that I never shoot so really dont see me using two.
I have mostly been using the 6.5x47 Lapua barrel for hunting but it is a heavy 24" long axle of a barrel with another 1.3kg of DMRII tactical scope and mount which really excels in its long range prone role.
I really went back in forward over whether to just chamber this barrel in 6.5x47 Lapua too and use the same loads but I still had a lot of Creedmoor Lapua brass and dies etc so figured I may as well make another Creedmoor instead.
https://i.ibb.co/KsRB8mv/20190516-184211.jpg
I ordered a Dave Kiff premium CIP chamber reamer which eventually arrived and did the job nicely. The std CIP freebore on this reamer is quite a lot shorter than the custom one I finished up with in the Remington barrel but I will see how it goes before any further throat mods.
https://i.ibb.co/928gqBD/IMG-20190513-WA0006.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Pckcjcm/20190513-193224.jpg
RL16 was my powder of choice for this cal with the shorter barrel and that has not changed, I will continue to use it in this barrel but backed off a full grain to check pressure limitations of this barrel before carrying on where I left off. Pressure signs and chrono numbers were all in the same ball park as my last barrel so I had a good load worked out before I even put them to paper.
Being this will be my shorter range walkabout rig I decided not to test any lighter 123gr bullets and will run 130 to 147gr bullets instead.
I have quite a few match bullet offerings in that weight range but also will sway toward a more hunting purposed bullet if they shoot ok.
https://i.ibb.co/CzvV2xv/20190516-095047.jpg
The line up I have chosen to test first is as follows:
130gr Hornady ELDM
130gr Sierra Tipped Match King (my go to in the Remington and also my new 6.5x47)
143gr Hornady ELDX
130gr Berger VLD Hunter
136gr Lapua Scenar L (more of a control bullet as this barrel shot them the best when it was a .260Rem at 1/4 MOA)
All loads tested here are Lapua small primer brass with CCI BR-4 primers, RL16 powder and bullets seated 5 to 10 thou off the lands.
I shot a few of each over the chrono to find the pressure range for each bullet that I wanted to operate within which were all fairly predictable and no eventful apart from the 130gr VLDH and the 130gr ELDM which were quite low in velocity due to the shorter bearing surfaces and higher case volume resulting from the bullets seated long to lands.
This pic shows the 130gr bullets with the variation in bearing surfaces:
https://i.ibb.co/xzyJ3w3/IMG-20190516-WA0003.jpg
This is the 130gr VLDH next to the 143gr ELDX
https://i.ibb.co/1GrZhPm/IMG-20190516-WA0005.jpg
The selected loads for each were selected with the intention of preserving brass life so nothing to hot. I get very mild primer cratering but not stiff bolt lift or any brass swiping/ejector rings.
https://i.ibb.co/ZTr24TV/20190516-102114.jpg
The chrono results of these first loads were as follows: (average of 3 shots)
136gr Lapua Scenar L COAL of 72mm with 42.5gr of RL16 (the exact same load I loaded for the .260Rem that gave 2700fps) gave 2878fps.
130gr Sierra TMK COAL of 73mm with 43.5 of RL16 gave 2891fps (I ran 44gr at 2910fps with the longer free bore Remington)
143gr Hornady ELDX COAL of 73mm with 42.0 of RL16 gave 2891fps
130gr Berger VLD hunter COAL of 73.5 with 43.0 of RL16 gave 2743fps which was very slow so I went with 44gr which gave 2772fps.
130gr Hornady ELDX COAL of 73mm with 43.0 of RL16 gave 2701fps which was also very slow so I bumped it up to 44gr which gave 2756fps.
The 130gr TMK seems to cope with a higher charge getting higher velocities than the other 130gr bullets which were starting to show the faintest of ejector kisses with the 44gr load so I have called that my max load.
To the 100 meter range...
I did not subtract my bullet diameter....
H4350 39.4gn
Lapua SRP Brass
CCI SMPP
Hornady 140 ELDM
Tikka T3 CTR
KRG Bravo Chassis
Schmidt and Bender PMII H59
Cadex Brake
.246@100m
Attachment 111526
120gn
Attachment 111527
Rifle
Attachment 111528
Attachment 111529
Attachment 111530
Attachment 111531
a Couple vides in slo mo to show brake efficacy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB6iMulsGi4&t=129s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAxs_qwBJRI&t=46s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIZqagX6CFI
So.. as far as the Hornady bullets. 120's are good, as are the 130's up to 143.... but the 147's will not stabilize no matter what load I try.
My STAG10 DMR Build will have an IBI Barrel, and hopefully the twist rate change will stabilize the 147's.
Pics to follow when I get it sussed out.
So 5 rounds of each loaded I did the 100 meter paper work..
https://youtu.be/kBBK9-2n4UQ
https://i.ibb.co/yWfLdhj/20190517-135540.jpg
No clear over achievers amongst them except maybe the 143gr ELDX which may need further group testing and I messed one shot up. The TMKs also excel for their velocity and proven hunting suitability but Id say all of these bullets could be fine tuned to shoot tiny bug holes.
https://i.ibb.co/2y8RKp7/20190517-143248.jpg
I must get to the range and shoot my 6.5 CM more seeing as it's only two minutes from my place. Last time I was getting 2,910fps average with 44.3gr of R16 with the Sierra 130gr Camechanger. Long throat and mag length so bullets are seated well out in my 24" barrel Tikka TSx Lite; good accuracy. For deer hunting though I'll stick with the 143 ELD-X with AR2209 (exact same powder as H4350).
Thanks for the PM Marc, I made a typo in my write up, looking back in my range book the velocity for the 143gr is 2801 av not 2891fps
That's still great performance and efficiency at 2801 fps! I only wish my rifle spat those ELD-X out that fast. It does group them beautifully though so I'm not complaining :)
Thanks for the in-depth write-up @Wingman. This thread is a great resource.
Maybe a little experiment is in order to find out what my rifle will digest. I didn't see any pressure signs with any of the Re16 loads that I tried.
@10-Ring - have you tried Re16 with the 143 ELD-X at all? I've tried it and got great accuracy but not quite the speed that Wingman is achieving (with the same load). What sort of results have you got with the 2209 and the 143? I got 2700 out of mine (20") but it felt 'warm'. So far the Re16 feels like a better fit for the heavier bullets.
The 2209 seems to work very nicely with the 123 ELD-M in mine. Decent speed and great accuracy. And the classic 41.5 behind the 140 ELD-M isn't fast but shoots so well it is boring.
I haven't tried Re16 with the 143 ELD-X. I get 2,760 fps with the AR2209; very accurate load. Could get more speed than that but not worth it in terms of reduced case and barrel life. Have tried Re26 with the 143 ELD-X and can easily get 2,800 fps without pressure signs, however it's not as accurate in my rifle as the AR2209. With the small primer pocket brass such as the Lapua by the time you see pressure signs you're way over pressure.
Incidentally, I've found the small primer Peterson brass to be even better quality than the Lapua.
Another quick loading and range session today with two new projectiles. I picked up a box of Hornady 147gr ELD Match bullets and decided to give the 139gr Lapua Scenars a go too as I have quite a lot of them.
I also decided to give the Hornady 143gr ELDX another go as I pulled one in the last trial ruining a sub 1/2 moa group.
Attachment 111929
Attachment 111930
I loaded a few of the 147gr ELDMs and 139gr lapuas with various charges of RL16 to find a max load then backed then off until the pressure only showed itself with a light primer crater like all the others tested.
The chosen loads for the paper tests were:
139gr Lapua Scenar 42.5gr of RL16, COAL of 72.8mm
These shot an average of 2884fps and brass looks good.
Attachment 111932
The 147gr ELD Match got 41gr of RL16 with a COAL of 74mm and gave 2731fps AV.
I tested right up to 42gr at 2785fps which just started to show a faint ejector print(just a shiny spot not raised brass) but it sounded louder and had heavier recoil. As soon as I shot the 41gr over the chrono it was noticably
quieter and obviously getting a more complete burn within the barrel. The sound changes quite dramatically when you reach that point. I decide 41gr is a good start to test on paper.
So armed with 5 of each I made my way to the 100m range and preceded with the paper work.
I started with the 139gr Lapuas which shot about the same 1/2moa as all the others tested as did the second test of 143gr ELDXs which was a little worse than my last test with them (excluding my pulled flyer) but still very good.
The 147gr ELD Match really set themselves apart though!
While not as fast as some of the 130s they made up for it in this tiny one holer and a ridiculous high BC figure of .697!
Attachment 111935
Attachment 111936
Attachment 111937
While the 100 meter group was perfect it will be interesting to test it for retained stability at 500-600 meters as it slows up. Can anyone else comment on the stability of this long ass bullet in a 1-8" twist Creedmoor or Creedmoor velocities?
I think the 143gr ELDX has more potential if I do some more group tests dropping the charge off 0.2gr at a time and I know from real world tests its still stable out past 1000 meters.
@Wingman, can you remember where you got that target ? it is a good layout.
That’s good shooting with all of those.
The 147 are doing good speed man. That’s a nice load.
Shot the 139 scenar and the 140 ELDM out to 600 yd with repeatable 1/2 MOA with 41.5 of 2209 They seem to stabilise well, cant help on the 147.
@gimp was running the 147s in his 260. He may have some experiences to add?
Any experience would be greatly recieved. I may give them a try in my .260Rem barrel which is a 26" long 1-8.5" twist.
I suppose I could load them down to match the velocity they would give at 300 meters and test them at 300 meters.. (that's as far as I can get at my place) that should give an accurate indication of what the stability is like at 600 meters loaded to 2730fps
I've had exactly the same grouping experience at 100m with 143ELD-X & 147 ELD-M with my 260Imp with 1:8 barrel as your grouping above. I haven't had a chance to stretch their (ELD-M) legs yet over distance for stability, so keen to see your results when done.
Nice group with the 147 ELD-M Wingman. Haven't tried those yet but will.
I use the 139 Scenar's in a reduced load of AR2209 for NZDA Hunter Class shoots. Always accurate and mild to shoot.
I would have had all this to go through myself but, fortunately, I’ve just bought a 6.5 x 47 Lapua that someone else has done all the load dev for, proven it in competition, and given me the details. Hopefully I will be able to duplicate the pet load, but even if I only come close, it’ll be fantastic.
Great skill and patience shown here by @Wingman to work through this process himself.😎
Had good experiance with the 147's in a Bergara. Only a mild load doing 2520fps from the 22" tube. Tight groups and went where I told my scope to put them.
Going the cheats route and getting someone to load develop for me with the 143 eldx in my Tikka.
Would do it myself but I’m living in Aus now so barely get any time to shoot let alone reload but a mate will have my rig and is learning how to reload for his 7-08 so he can replicate the winning recipe for me.
The rifle is heading to the smith to get bottom metal fitted anyway so thought getting a load developed would be a good idea at the same time.
Taking the advice of getting a decent chrony and will invest in a Magnetospeed for good measure.