6.5x47 with a Lee Collet Die

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11-09-2016, 12:21 AM
Puffin

6.5x47 with a Lee Collet Die

I'm having real trouble with concentricity using a Redding type-S bushing die on once-fired cases and am now looking at other options for neck sizing with low runout. Can a 6.5x55 or 260Rem Lee collet die be used for the 6.5x47 please? Will I need to take to it with a grinder or turn it down in length? Will it matter that the die is not shaped internally for the case - I'm thinking that the more gradual shoulders on both of the above might restrict the amount of neck that gets sized on the 6.5x47 case with the 30 degree shoulder. Could I run a reamer into it to fix this as I gather that the dies are not hardened? Any advice much appreciated!
11-09-2016, 12:56 AM
R93

Have you checked runout before sizing?
If so and all is good, try sizing without the button and see if that helps. I have not used the button yet in my redding .260 AI dies and have just a whisker of a flicker on my gauge.
My redding full length dies for my .223 work perfectly with the button.

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11-09-2016, 02:34 AM
andyanimal31

do what I did and leave the concentricity Guage on the shelf.
I tried perfect ammo and bent ammo (.8000) and at 600 yds was no different.
with reloading the more you know the less you know!
they were both 3 inch groups

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11-09-2016, 10:53 AM
mikee

Dumb question................ are you neck turning your cases before use. It is my understanding that you need to neck turn when using bushing dies
11-09-2016, 11:57 AM
6.5Harasser

I find the less I prep brass the better the groups I get lol.

Like mikee said, if brass is unturned then you are pressing 1 or 2 thou more neck to one side and your bullet will sit that much over.
11-09-2016, 01:31 PM
shooternz

What is the rest of your reloading setup just because you are getting runout don't blame the S die it could be any of the tools in the process that is the problem, start with new brass measure it for uniformity including neck thickness even Lapua brass is not always to spec I have had to turn .004" off one batch to get it uniform, check that the the ram in the press is true and the shell holder is square with the bottom of the die,
It could also be the seating die if the seating stem is not quite straight or does not fit the bullets ogive,
To get the best out of reloading invest in a brenchrest type setup with Wilson straight line dies and an Arbor press,
how much runout are you getting?
11-09-2016, 01:31 PM
Friwi

Same for me concerning the 6.5 creedmoor . I had necked turned my first batch of a 100 and was sizing with a Redding type s die. Now I am onto a new batch and can't be bothered to neck turn. Does lee make a neck sizing die for the 6.5 creedmoor?
11-09-2016, 03:23 PM
outdoorlad

How much runout are you getting?

Take the expander out of the die, Redding S dies normally come with another decapping pin retainer, put that in.
I'd be surprised if it's the resizing die, as others have said you need to check the run out at each stage to see where it's coming from, another trick is when you seat the bullet, seat it halfway then raise the ram & turn the case 180deg then finish seating the bullet.
11-09-2016, 04:33 PM
Puffin

Thanks for all the replies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R93

Have you checked runout before sizing?
If so and all is good, try sizing without the button and see if that helps.

The gauge reads within +/-0.0005" on the fired cases, +/-0.002-3" once sized. The expander is not fitted. I'm taking 0.293-0.2935" OD on the fired cases down with a 0.288 bushing. Maybe this is too much for one step.

I did skim-turn a sample of 20 cases and found the neck uniformity to be pretty good, between 0.013" and 0.0135" so left the rest alone. I don't think this level of thickness variation is likely pushing the necks off centre by the above amount. It is probably the press - a thrashed out old RCBS rockchucker - in combination with the design of the Redding type-S not supporting the cases while the neck is being introduced into the bushing, reliant on every aspect of the setup being uniform & concentric to start with. My other reloading has either been with conventional full-length sizing dies or Redding competition, where in both the cases are supported on-axis when the necks are being sized, so I've probably got away with using a wobbly press for years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shooternz

....It could also be the seating die if the seating stem is not quite straight or does not fit the bullets ogive,To get the best out of reloading invest in a brenchrest type setup with Wilson straight line dies.....

The runout is in the neck prior to seating. I have a Redding competition seating die (sleaved/straightline) with VLD seater so don't expect further deterioration from seating.

Accepting that my press or setup in some way will not work with type-S dies I read that the Lee collet was able to produce very concentric necks, but having never handled one of these dies I don't know to what extent the case is supported or needs to be supported at the time the collet is squeezing the neck onto the mandrel ? It looks like either a 6.5x55 or 260 die could be used by shortening the outside sleeve, the case holder/collet, and the mandrel.
My question is now whether the internal profile will also need to be reamed out to a snug fit for the the 6.5x47 to support the cases properly for the collet die to produce the good concentricity it is capable of ?
17-09-2016, 11:47 PM
10-Ring

I get less runout using Wilson bushings (in the Redding Type -S neck dies) instead of the Redding ones. Don't know why, the only difference being the Wilson bushings are tapered .0005. I also size in two steps with two separate bushings; may or may not make a difference in your rifle.
17-09-2016, 11:58 PM
10-Ring

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyanimal31

do what I did and leave the concentricity Guage on the shelf.
I tried perfect ammo and bent ammo (.8000) and at 600 yds was no different.....

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Did you repeat that at least four times to prove that was the maxim in your particular rifle?
18-09-2016, 12:34 AM
Puffin

Quote:

Originally Posted by shooternz

.... don't blame the S die it could be any of the tools in the process.... check that the the ram in the press is true and the shell holder is square with the bottom of the die......

I got 9/10ths of the way to fixing this by experimentation yesterday. Yes, the die doesn't support the case so without anything being wrong with the die it still requires more from the other parts of the reloading system than dies that do engage the case body to centre the neck. The press unfortunately is worn, but the fix was to rotate the shell holder by 180 degrees and feed from the other side.... not perfect results but much much better. I haven't worked out what exactly was wrong and why this has made an apparent improvement. I'll see how the rounds shoot before saying any more. No need now then to modify a Lee as previously planned though. Thanks again for all the feedback.
18-09-2016, 01:44 AM
10-Ring

Have you tried replacing the spring that holds the shell holder with a rubber band?
18-09-2016, 10:33 AM
andyanimal31

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

Did you repeat that at least four times to prove that was the maxim in your particular rifle?

no need as it shoots better than I can and seems to be winning a few comps just how it is so if it's not broken leave it!

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18-09-2016, 04:44 PM
10-Ring

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyanimal31

no need as it shoots better than I can and seems to be winning a few comps just how it is so if it's not broken leave it!

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Well you can't expect better than that.

The only reason I askeded my previous question to you was that I've seen so many shooters shoot one good group and proclaim that their rifle was a .5 MOA shooter or something similar. You're obviously too experienced to be fooled by that.

I do think (and have experienced it many times) that excessive runout has a detrimental effect on accuracy for certain types of shooting such as target or long range shooting. For hunting under 300m? Probably makes little or no difference.
18-09-2016, 07:47 PM
andyanimal31

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

Well you can't expect better than that.

The only reason I askeded my previous question to you was that I've seen so many shooters shoot one good group and proclaim that their rifle was a .5 MOA shooter or something similar. You're obviously too experienced to be fooled by that.

I do think (and have experienced it many times) that excessive runout has a detrimental effect on accuracy for certain types of shooting such as target or long range shooting. For hunting under 300m? Probably makes little or no difference.

proof is in the pudding today when the dirty old tikka stock standard with standard Hunting loads cleaned up today at the manawatu and taihape deerstalker 300 comp against some pretty nice rigs.
I think 138 out of 150 possible. 15 shots
paper don't lie!

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18-09-2016, 07:51 PM
yerimaginaryM8

you could shorten a 6.5x55 lcd easily they are not hardened. Lee sells Mandrels with different diameters fairly cheap special order and they will send them to New Zealand I have done this. As far as the bushing die goes how is your neck tension? if it is tight this might be contributing to the run out? but it sounds like you have it totally sorted with that cmpetition result. nice shooting.
18-09-2016, 09:34 PM
6x47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puffin

I got 9/10ths of the way to fixing this by experimentation yesterday. ...the fix was to rotate the shell holder by 180 degrees and feed from the other side.... not perfect results but much much better. ....

This suggests to me your shellholder isn't correctly aligning the case with the axis of the die, or the base of the shellholder isn't perpendicular to this axis.