Accuracy problem, 243, 105 gr Berber VLD hunting

Ok so last year I got my rifle assembled and bedded etc. 243, Remington clone, truflit #3 profile sportier 24" 1:8 twist, hardy gen5. Had been shooting 87 gr Berger hunting vld's (W760/H414) with good accuracy and taken some deer and goats out to 440 mtr. Then I got some Berger 105 gr Vld's loaded them over WIN 780 Supreme for 3020fps. I did go a grain hotter with no issues but liked to keep some margin for error and the extra barrel life.

Did some shooting recently at 175 mtr and got patterns 4-6" Not happy but to be fair the rest I was using and wind conditions were poor and the scope had taken a knock on my previous trip. Went home and remounted the scope as I wanted to move it forward.
Move forward to today. Just shot at 65 mtr and again the 105's gave me 2x3" pattern.
Had loaded some 87gr rounds and got 2 touching and 1 about 0.2" to the left.

Any suggestions guys and girls?

I know cartridge OAL can be important with these VLD's but I would have through that's move about moving from 1.5 MOA down to 0.5 MOA. I have loaded over length but still with a jump of 50 thou.
The holes are clean in the paper both at 65 and 175 mths so they are stable.
Zane

My 243 doesn't like 100 gr for some reason maybe yours is the same

Berger has suggestions on their website on how to get an accurate VLD load, they are very sensitive to seating depth. In my 7mag I jammed the vld's 15 thou into the rifling.

VLD don't like the jump but the classic hunters don't mind. Maybe it's having trouble stabilising them??

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

Try the 105 A-Max. Maybe the Berger isn't for your rifle. I like slow powders in my 243 with heavy for cal pills. 2217, N160, RL22.
If you're good to 440m with the 87g then why worry?

Let me know if it's of any help & I can send you a few 105gr Targex to try, mine are a low drag & a little more forgiving than the VLD's. The VLD's can be a bit of fun to get going sometimes but it could just be a rifle that doesn't like a certain bullet.
It happens & sometimes leaves you scratching your head as there is no obvious logic, stops it getting boring!
Cheers.

Yep it could just be a case of not liking those heavy bullets. Try a few other brands of 105 grainers or 100 grs and see if it likes them. If it does the Berger seating death might be the problem.

Check your neck tensions and case lenghts. The long high BC bullets need really good case prep to ensure they all launch the same.

Have you checked for concentricity? What seating die are you using? I see Berger themselves recommend using a seater with a stem designed specifically for vld projectiles - to prevent 'bottoming out' and help with concentricity. I am starting to wonder if one of these may have helped in some of my recent VLD-H experiments.....

Thanks Guy's.
I'm still keen on working with some 105's mostly for larger animals.
My experiance says the 87 gr berger hunting works very well in goats, falllow and red Hinds & yearlings. I went to the 105's for a Tahr hunt I'm working towards. In goats they get about 1/2 way through before they do their thing leaving massive exit holes so definitly they are more suitable to a larger bodied animal.
Targex I think you are in Dargaville, I get across that every couple of months from Whangarei. I may well take you up and buy a sample pack. Have read some good comments on your work.

I know the VLD's are sensitive to length. I loaded them 0.060" over SAMMI length but still have a jump to the rifling. I can't go longer due to mag length and don't want to hand feed. I had sort of expected that tuneing of the OAL was the sort of thing that you did to get from 1.5MoA down to sub 1/2Moa for long range target work.
Zane

No worries if you want a few to try out, nothing worsen than buying box after box of bullets that don't work in your rifle.
I'm at Matakohe, so a bit closer to you than Dargaville.
I also make a 95gr which are very popular with hunters(I use them in my 6mm284) if you have no luck getting the 105gr to work. They give a bit flatter trajectory & kill well.
cheers, Bryn

Also despite most telling you the VLD need to be seated into the lands, in some rifles they work better with a 15-20 thou jump.
I had a target rifle 6BR which would only shoot them well if they jumped otherwise they were rubbish in it, that was with Berger 105gr VLD's years ago.
When they jumped to the rifling that rifle would shoot consistent .25" groups with them certainly surprised me.
Interesting thing was a few years after I found that out Bergers put out the same info on the website too.
Could be worth you trying it.

On Berger's website they have an info sheet on seating the VLD. you seat them in lots of jammed 10 thou, jump 40 thou, 80 thou and 120 thou. One will shoot better than others in your rifle.

As Targex said if you can't get the 105 bergers to work try some of his 95gn projectile, they will sort out most things in this country.

Load a few seated longer and hand feed. If accuracy improves you will know
what the problem is.

Thanks guys. I'm probably at a 0.040 jump now as I'm limited by my magazine length. Don't want to hand feed.

Do you think that playing around with the OAL will sort a problem when we are talking 2-3" at 100mtrs vs 0.5" for other rounds.
Zane

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZQLewis

Thanks guys. I'm probably at a 0.040 jump now as I'm limited by my magazine length. Don't want to hand feed.

Do you think that playing around with the OAL will sort a problem when we are talking 2-3" at 100mtrs vs 0.5" for other rounds.
Zane

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No.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZQLewis

Thanks guys. I'm probably at a 0.040 jump now as I'm limited by my magazine length. Don't want to hand feed.

Do you think that playing around with the OAL will sort a problem when we are talking 2-3" at 100mtrs vs 0.5" for other rounds.
Zane

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Hi keep trying different seating depths this is copied from Bergers website, I had the same problem with the 87gr vld in my 9" twist 243 and doing this test sorted it out-interestingly seating them deeper solved my problem and you don't need to load that many rounds 3 rounds at each length will show you whats up.

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.
Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).
Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
.010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith

Thanks guys. My gut is saying I agree with Kiwijames.
If I was looking to get from say 1.5 Moa to sub 1/2moa then I would do the COAL field test. Given how bad things are I think I need another projectile if I want to stay with 105 gr.
The 105 gr Vld lets me have 1000 ft lb of energy at 500 mtr which is up their for a 243 win.
Not that I am shooting deer at that range.
Zane