"Air space" in 303 British and 308 Winchester caseloads...Dangerous?

With reloading 303 and 308 I am now looking at reducing the projectile seating depth to reduce the "bullet jump" I currently have with commercial loads. Sadly, there are 3 gray areas of my knowledge.

1...Having entered reloading via black powder, I am very conscious of the danger from air space in BP rounds and with the reduced seating depth of 303 and 308 projectiles, is the increased airspace in the case a danger, as it is for B.P. I am using when using ADI AR2208.

If not, great, if so, would the usual space fillers for B.P. be suitable?

2...Reducing the projectile seating depth, results in less length of the projectile in the case. For safety and pressure, is there a minimum length of projectile required in the case.....or is it that it must just be solidly fixed?

3...Does the answer to 2 also apply to boat tail projectiles as they have a tapering end which, dependent upon the taper, reduces the ability of the case to securely hold the projectile?


Finally does the OAL measurement as given in the appropriate dies have any relevance to the above? i.e not to be exceeded under any circummstances.
Thank You.

The extra air gap wont be a problem in that situation.
There is a risk of the powder detonating rather than burning in very reduced loads tho....like less than 60% case fill.
Rule of thumb is the bore diameter of engagement but in reality nowhere near this is required.
If you have a good 3-4mm contact in the neck you should have no problems in a bolt action.

Don't use fillers.

1. Give a factory round a shake and listen to the powder rattle around. A 100% full case is ideal for consistent ignition and chasing very low extreme spreads, but it's perfectly normal to have less than 100% and a little airspace.

2. One full bullet diameter is a good guideline. Some go less, 2/3rds or even 1/2. But more will aid in concentricity and give increased tension which is kind of what you're after with hunting ammo.

3. The boat tail isn't measured in the above, so for a boat tail bullet the guideline above would read "seat the entire boat tail plus a full bullet diameter".

It's fine as long as you aren't playing around with reduced loads with really low density.

I think the rule of thumb is that you should have at least a bullet diameter worth of projectile in the case neck.

Gotta be quick with answers around here!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pommy

Don't use fillers.

1. Give a factory round a shake and listen to the powder rattle around. A 100% full case is ideal for consistent ignition and chasing very low extreme spreads, but it's perfectly normal to have less than 100% and a little airspace.

2. One full bullet diameter is a good guideline. Some go less, 2/3rds or even 1/2. But more will aid in concentricity and give increased tension which is kind of what you're after with hunting ammo.

3. The boat tail isn't measured in the above, so for a boat tail bullet the guideline above would read "seat the entire boat tail plus a full bullet diameter".

---

Quote:

---

Gotta be quick with answers around here!

---

Yup Pommy summed it up in a nutshell, concentric rounds are more important than jump in my book. But that's just me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiwi Sapper

With reloading 303 and 308 I am now looking at reducing the projectile seating depth to reduce the "bullet jump" I currently have with commercial loads. Sadly, there are 3 gray areas of my knowledge.

1...Having entered reloading via black powder, I am very conscious of the danger from air space in BP rounds and with the reduced seating depth of 303 and 308 projectiles, is the increased airspace in the case a danger, as it is for B.P. I am using when using ADI AR2208.

If not, great, if so, would the usual space fillers for B.P. be suitable?

2...Reducing the projectile seating depth, results in less length of the projectile in the case. For safety and pressure, is there a minimum length of projectile required in the case.....or is it that it must just be solidly fixed?

3...Does the answer to 2 also apply to boat tail projectiles as they have a tapering end which, dependent upon the taper, reduces the ability of the case to securely hold the projectile?


Finally does the OAL measurement as given in the appropriate dies have any relevance to the above? i.e not to be exceeded under any circummstances.
Thank You.

---

Greetings Kiwi Sapper,
Loads down to start loads will be no problem. With AR2206H you can go down to 60% of max loads for the cartridge and projectile. Best performance will be somewhere above that. I have found in the two cartridges you mention you can still get excellent accuracy with the projectiles well short of the lands, especially with flat base projectiles. Boat tails can be a bit wonky. As mentioned above 1 calibre is the accepted minimum but I have loaded down to 6mm in .308 and .303 with good results. Your magazines may dictate your LOA. A longer jump to the lands will generally lower pressure. I have found that the Hornady 174 grain round nose projectiles are excellent in the .303.
Happy loading Grandpamac.

Rule of thumb, is , dont use your thumb, use a bullet daimeter. If your in a boat still use the thumb and make sure your tail is covered to prevent detonation if your less than 60 % full.
Oh hang on I might have that back wards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mimms2

I'm still cautious with BP (My method is "fill it")
However, from every verfiable source I've ever come across, air gap is another unfortunately persistent myth.
Dacron is generally accepted, it wont absorb moisture. Some peaople use "cream of wheat", powdered oats etc.

The general consensus with smokeless is fill >80% case volume.

There is absolutely NO evidence anywhere (not, "mate of a mate") That reduced smokeless loads are dangerous at all. Laborotories have tried and failed, to prove the myth of underloading. My diagnosis is that people either double-charge, or pull the trigger on an obstruction (the previous round, didn't clear the barrel) But I have no evidence for this.

General consensus is "one calibre" holding projo in neck. .303 ideally wants 7.62mm held by the neck.
Most trad 303 have the leade shot out and you won't be able to seat to the lands anyhow.

OAL depends on projectile and a more useful measurement is "Base to Ogive"

---

@mimms2 I thought I read years ago that they did prove it?
Took a certain set of parameters
A certain powder type, in a certain size case as in maybe 308 or bigger, and massive underloading like less than 50% of volume. Something like that
Then it was relatively repeatable.
Not generally a few grains under minimum but quite a lot like a cock up with the powder thrower or misinterpretation of load data. @grandpamac do you remember the details or is it indeed a myth

What Ho Chaps,

My thanks for your helpful and reassuring posts. I now understand that:

Case neck to projectile contact should be the diameter of the projectile.......Although this precludes my efforts to substantially reduce bullet jump in my 308. So be it. I asked, you answered, I follow.

As I seek "hot loads like a gay guy seeks a couger," and as an x civil servant, "I can follow the handbook instructions", <80% low loads are of no interest" SO filling "air space" with modern powders will not be an issue.


The "Boat tail" comments are particularly helpful and reassuring. I only have a left over 80 pack of them which I will save for the rainy day I runut of FMJ for the Spanish FR 8 which is #2 308.

Just a couple of "things'..........

Thing 1......I learned a new word today....concentricity I Googled and apart from understanding a central point of a circle....I am still Duh and fail to understand the link to projectiles...apart from being round and "balanced'


Thing 2......I still lack guidance on my query "does the OAL measurement as given in the appropriate dies have any relevance to the above? i.e not to be exceeded under any circumstances"

I understand @mimms2 post ( Thank You) "..OAL depends on projectile and a more useful measurement is "Base to Ogive" as homing in on "bullet jump" i encountered another new word Ogive and I have acquired the goodies required to measure that and it is the measure for improvment ......even if I can't achieve it because of chamber length.

SO, is OAL a safety Law or guidance?


Again, many thanks.



P.S. @grandpamac....

I followed your guidance re projectiles for the Parker Hale Mauser 308 and now have a goodly collection of Hornady Interlock 150 flat base . The 80 BT 's are leftover from seeing which she liked :>)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by csmiffy

@mimms2 I thought I read years ago that they did prove it?
Took a certain set of parameters
A certain powder type, in a certain size case as in maybe 308 or bigger, and massive underloading like less than 50% of volume. Something like that
Then it was relatively repeatable.
Not generally a few grains under minimum but quite a lot like a cock up with the powder thrower or misinterpretation of load data. @grandpamac do you remember the details or is it indeed a myth

---

My understanding is that detonation has never been satisfactorily proven.
Problem is running any evidence to ground.
There are lots of other forums out there with threads on the topic, and lots of heresy.
Lots of theories around specific powders being the cause.

I personally run a massively reduced load in one of my K31 Swiss rifles.
I use Haendler & Natermann swaged lead projectiles.
The load from their reloading tables states no filler required.
I was a bit leery at first about the load etc but have fired maybe a hundred rounds, and all good.
I did contact H&N to confirm the no filler needed bit.
The accuracy is v good and the velocity ES is reasonable with no oddball spikes.
The powder used is not a bulky/case filling powder.

As I understand it going longer than the OAL means it won't feed or probably wont feed from the magazine.

There must be other reasons but being new to all this I don't know them.

Cast lead is a bit of a different matter. For me 10 grains of blue dot certainly is nowhere near a full case but under a 180 grains cast lead projectile my martini enfield loves it. No filler. Actually a full case of blue dot would be very bad i suspect.

had 110grn loads in 270 made for me by local sports shop using 760 powder...but me thinks it was old/dodgy batch....UNLESS I did the point at moon.lower and fire thing,I got double detonation...I had asked for velocity around 3000fps.... by putting powder in rear of case the detonation was good.
years later I did the maths and tried to duplicate this load with ZERO issues.
found a hard case way to seat to projectile width the other day..pretty much by mistake.... I placed projectile in case mouth by hand,screwed die back out,took it down till it just touched projectile with projectile sitting sideways between base of die and case holder,tightened things up....removed sideways projectile and proceded to seat....seemed to work well... NORMALLY all I do is set die with a factory round...or previously made reload...place loaded round in shell holder,unscrew top of seating die,lower ram,then slowly screw stem inwards till handle twiches like your old fella when is sees boobies...STOP thinking of boobies....stop threading stem in....and proceed to seat your loads...check first one out of press in mag and chamber...WITH ALL DUE CAUTION...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiwi Sapper

With reloading 303 and 308 I am now looking at reducing the projectile seating depth to reduce the "bullet jump" I currently have with commercial loads. Sadly, there are 3 gray areas of my knowledge.

1...Having entered reloading via black powder, I am very conscious of the danger from air space in BP rounds and with the reduced seating depth of 303 and 308 projectiles, is the increased airspace in the case a danger, as it is for B.P. I am using when using ADI AR2208.

If not, great, if so, would the usual space fillers for B.P. be suitable?

2...Reducing the projectile seating depth, results in less length of the projectile in the case. For safety and pressure, is there a minimum length of projectile required in the case.....or is it that it must just be solidly fixed?

3...Does the answer to 2 also apply to boat tail projectiles as they have a tapering end which, dependent upon the taper, reduces the ability of the case to securely hold the projectile?


Finally does the OAL measurement as given in the appropriate dies have any relevance to the above? i.e not to be exceeded under any circummstances.
Thank You.

---

I suguest you buy a reloading manual preferably put out by the manufacture of the projectiles you are using, load your ammo with the overall length as given
and the start load and work up in 0.5 grain steps until you find the most accurate powder charge this will give you a known load to check other loads performance
against, choose a powder that gives the best velocity with 90% case capcity compressing modern smokeless powders is not recommended when starting out,
With the .308 and .303 Brit 2206H and 2208 are the easiest to work with both lead and jacketed bullets for reduced loads use Trail Boss, Stay within recommended
powder charge weights and you can't go wrong, And forget about S.E.E it does not happen.

@Kiwi Sapper

Concentricity of bullet seating refers to the bullet axis being concentric with the bore axis. Not a problem in round balls, but in long and pointy bullets it is. A oblong bullet engaging the rifling at an angle will, if you trace the progression of its very tip, progress in a corkscrew manner through the barrel, and on exiting fly in a corkscrew trajectory until the spin stabilises it ... at a random point in the corkscrew trajectory. And it flies straight from that point on. This theory predicts that if you zero your rifle at a particular point, bullets will tend to hit AROUND this point, and with less initial corkscrewing the smaller the ring diameter. That is, if you shoot 20 round groups, the groups should be less dense around their middles.

Back to @winaa's comment that he believes concentric rounds are more important than jump.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by csmiffy

@mimms2 I thought I read years ago that they did prove it?
Took a certain set of parameters
A certain powder type, in a certain size case as in maybe 308 or bigger, and massive underloading like less than 50% of volume. Something like that
Then it was relatively repeatable.
Not generally a few grains under minimum but quite a lot like a cock up with the powder thrower or misinterpretation of load data. @grandpamac do you remember the details or is it indeed a myth

---

Greetings Csmiffy,
The article that I mentioned in an earlier post was in Handloader about 40 years ago. The rifle was a .240 Gibbs and the writer found he was able to produce pressure spikes with reduced loads and holding the rifle muzzle down before firing. This was in one rifle with his components. The .240 Gibbs is based on the .30-06 case with the shoulder moved well forward and increased to around 40 degrees. If there ever was a barrel burner this would qualify so the rifle would likely have had a rough leade. The writer had purchased the rifle second hand so there is another unknown. I have seen the statement that laboratories have failed to demonstrate pressure spikes from reduced loads of slow powder in large capacity small calibre cases but have never seen any detail to back it up.
Regardless the caution applies to a specific small group of cartridges and may have been reduced or eliminated by modern manufactured powders. 40 years back there was a lot of military surplus slow powder about which was never originally intended to find its way onto a handloaders bench.
So to ease Kiwi Sapper's mind none of this applies to the .308 or .303. The main danger here is a too light load failing to ignite the powder at all, or the powder being omitted completely. This can leave the projectile just far enough in the barrel so that a second round can be chambered behind it and very bad things happening if the trigger is pressed. I have heard first hand of both of these happening recently, fortunately both were detected and no harm was done.
Regards Grandpamac.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiwi Sapper

What Ho Chaps,

My thanks for your helpful and reassuring posts. I now understand that:

Case neck to projectile contact should be the diameter of the projectile.......Although this precludes my efforts to substantially reduce bullet jump in my 308. So be it. I asked, you answered, I follow.

As I seek "hot loads like a gay guy seeks a couger," and as an x civil servant, "I can follow the handbook instructions", <80% low loads are of no interest" SO filling "air space" with modern powders will not be an issue.


The "Boat tail" comments are particularly helpful and reassuring. I only have a left over 80 pack of them which I will save for the rainy day I runut of FMJ for the Spanish FR 8 which is #2 308.

Just a couple of "things'..........

Thing 1......I learned a new word today....concentricity I Googled and apart from understanding a central point of a circle....I am still Duh and fail to understand the link to projectiles...apart from being round and "balanced'


Thing 2......I still lack guidance on my query "does the OAL measurement as given in the appropriate dies have any relevance to the above? i.e not to be exceeded under any circumstances"

I understand @mimms2 post ( Thank You) "..OAL depends on projectile and a more useful measurement is "Base to Ogive" as homing in on "bullet jump" i encountered another new word Ogive and I have acquired the goodies required to measure that and it is the measure for improvment ......even if I can't achieve it because of chamber length.

SO, is OAL a safety Law or guidance?


Again, many thanks.



P.S. @grandpamac....

I followed your guidance re projectiles for the Parker Hale Mauser 308 and now have a goodly collection of Hornady Interlock 150 flat base . The 80 BT 's are leftover from seeing which she liked :>)

---

Greetings Kiwi Sapper,
In answer to your specific Question no 2. The maximum OAL listed in some manuals is there as a suggestion only. Provided you have the projectile seated far enough into the case to keep it there and the cartridge will fit in the magazine there will be no problem. Some testing that I have read showed that a longer jump to the rifling does reduce velocity somewhat. Seating the projectile further out to be close to the rifling in the same chamber reduces velocity a little more. I seat the projectiles further out in my 6.5 with no problems.
Regards Grandpamac.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cordite

@Kiwi Sapper

Concentricity of bullet seating refers to the bullet axis being concentric with the bore axis..............Back to @winaa's comment that he believes concentric rounds are more important than jump.

---

Ah, thank you.
My ponderings were something along this line but as it is not an issue over which I have any control, ( apart from buying suitable projectiles) I disagree with winaa's view. I believe I have more ability to affect accuracy with projectile seating depth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Happy Jack

As I understand it going longer than the OAL means it won't feed or probably wont feed from the magazine. There must be other reasons but being new to all this I don't know them.

---

My thoughts entirely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mimms2

OAL is determined by SAAMI spec which is what manufacturers cut chambers to, make magazine length to etc.
It's usually "good enough" but the golden dimension for me has been 0.02 ogive to lands.

---

Ah, now that is of use as I am aware that several views exist on "touching" to 'away from". So if the chamber length and magazine allow it, that 0.02 will also b my goal.

Thank You.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Cast lead is a bit of a different matter. For me 10 grains of blue dot certainly is nowhere near a full case but under a 180 grains cast lead projectile my martini enfield loves it. No filler. Actually a full case of blue dot would be very bad i suspect.

---

Bother..............I was progressing nicely with 303 and 308 and modern powder then you bring this up...Now I'm going to have to look at my Martini Enfield as casting lead is on the to do list for my MLE.......Now extended to the M.E, but as I don't.want to buy, (even if I could) another powder so will have to workout a lower powder charge for 2208.

Thank You.......I fink. :>)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandpamac

..................
So to ease Kiwi Sapper's mind none of this applies to the .308 or .303. The main danger here is a too light load failing to ignite the powder at all, or the powder being omitted completely. This can leave the projectile just far enough in the barrel so that a second round can be chambered behind it and very bad things happening if the trigger is pressed. I have heard first hand of both of these happening recently, fortunately both were detected and no harm was done.
Regards Grandpamac.

---

having fired a lot of WW 2 303, I am now VERY conscious of a click.....bang

Or even worse, a click.......

Consequently the latter causes me to freeze for 15 seconds then eject and "peer myopically down the long hollow thing." :>)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mimms2

I have 2208 recipies for both 303 (to match the sellier belot 150gn loading) and 308. I'll post them when I get to a PC as reference.

---

All assistance gratefully received. Thank You

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiwi Sapper

having fired a lot of WW 2 303, I am now VERY conscious of a click.....bang

Or even worse, a click.......

Consequently the latter causes me to freeze for 15 seconds then eject and "peer myopically down the long hollow thing." :>)

---

I'd suggest waiting a tad longer. NRANZ requirement on their ranges is 30 seconds and that's for modern ammo not cantenkerous old milsurp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiwi Sapper

Ah, thank you.
My ponderings were something along this line but as it is not an issue over which I have any control, ( apart from buying suitable projectiles) I disagree with winaa's view. I believe I have more ability to affect accuracy with projectile seating depth.

---

Seating depth and concentricity are related.

Consider why people seat just off the lands. ON lands may of course cause a pressure spike, so just off lands is desirable. But why try and get as close as possible to the lands? It is for out of a desire to have the projectile engage concentrically. A long throat risks the bullet having too much time and space to misbehave (deviate from concentric) before it locks into the rifling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zimmer

I'd suggest waiting a tad longer. NRANZ requirement on their ranges is 30 seconds and that's for modern ammo not cantenkerous old milsurp.

---

Good point..........I can count to ten, add in the fingers and then do the toes.:>) Sweet as. :>)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cordite

Seating depth and concentricity are related........

---

Yup, so that is why I will try to follow mimms2 golden rule, ".....the golden dimension for me has been 0.02 ogive to lands.


Am I wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiwi Sapper

Good point..........I can count to ten, add in the fingers and then do the toes.:>) Sweet as. :>)

---

Yep, if you open that bolt and a hangfire does go bang you may end up less 5 or more of those counting aids.

At least with a smle you can manually recock without opening the bolt and try again.
Although I've generally found if they don't go off with the first strike they won't go off at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mimms2

I've heard this story before. Maybe even from you. How do you know you got "double detonation".... and what exactly is that, anyway...

(some keyword searches are SEE, secondary explosive effect; and detonation, which is the super-sonic propagation of "an explosion" which afaik is impossible in this scenario as powder is rather carefully engineered to deflagrate (burn at subsonic speed)...rather than detonate. And the transition has been carefully studied by folks clevererer than me. And if they reckon it ain't too likely, I'll reckon it aint too likely.

---

BA....Boom definate pause between them....really made a fella flinch something aweful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

BA....Boom definate pause between them....really made a fella flinch something aweful.

---

Greetings Micky,
I find your description of the Ba...Boom sound quite interesting. Setting aside any discussions about SEE and it's acronyms it sounds to me that you may have had a delayed ignition. I have seen this described as a pressure spike in a series of identical loads. This seems to happen in well worn barrels with slow powder. The theory is that the cap goes bang and the powder takes a wee while to get going. In the mean time the projectile has entered the worn throat and slows down just as the pressure rises causing a pressure spike. About 20 years ago loads for the .243 Win and 7mm Rem Mag and some others were reduced after the introduction of electronic pressure testing equipment. The new equipment showed pressure spikes that the old copper crusher test equipment could not detect. Both these cartridges are noted barrel burners sometimes blamed on their short necks. Thought you might be interested.
Regards Grandpamac.

Cannot remember without reading back but wasn't it a reasonable load of ball powder?