Annealing after sizing?

Hi all.

I haven't tried annealing brass before, but after F/L sizing and cleaning a bunch of .243 brass and noticing a few of them had split necks, I'm keen to give it a go. I'll be using the hand / blowtorch method.

I assume annealing is best done before sizing to get the full benefit of the softened brass, but as I've already sized this lot, should I go ahead and anneal or just load 'em up and do it next time around? And if I anneal now, do I need to run them back through the sizing die?

I've also got quite a bit of fully prepped 2x and 3x fired 7mmWSM brass that is looking fine, but as it is quite hard to come by, I'm tempted to anneal that now if it makes sense. This lot has been sized with a bushing die though, so supposedly not worked as much. I also don't know how many firings the .243 brass has had, as it was given to me by a good bloke on here.

Cheers, Rob

Load em up, sizing is what does most of the work hardening.

I re-size either FL or neck then anneal. Works for me. And start annealing after 2 or 3 firings.

I've always annealed before sizing, can't say I've heard of annealing after sizing ?

Always anneal after every firing and b4 any sizing.
I deprime, brush clean inside the neck, clean the outside of the neck and shoulder with Krazy Kloth, clean the primer pocket, and then anneal.
My annealer is calibrated to a fired case. Annealing a sized case does give a very slight difference.
Anneal before sizing because the sizing is what hardens the brass, along with firing.
If you're doing it to prevent split necks same deal.

Annealing before sizing is the way to go. Annealing after sizing may prevent neck cracking on firing and even neck tension leading to improved accuracy in extreme cases.


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Always try to anneal before sizing - this way you'll be able to control the spring back after sizing.

Most reloaders does not use a decapping die and thus sizes the cases to remove the primer during the case prep process. I would suggest to FL size again after annealing.

Not sure what effect annealing after sizing would have, but another +1 for annealing before sizing over here.

To be fair any body that is thinking of annealing needs to look at the AMP website and get some scientific data on annealing..
The blow torch method is proven to be an ineffective hit and miss system.
When brass is worth a small fortune these days use a member of the forum or trademe to get some one to anneal them with their induction amp annealer.
It does make a difference!

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Thanks all. The consensus confirms what I assumed re. preferably annealing before sizing, but my point was that I'd already sized this batch.

On the basis of @Dicko's comment I might give it a crack with the .243 now, and start annealing the 7WSM next time around.

Yes @andyanimal31, I'd much prefer to use an AMP but need a zero cost option right now.

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Originally Posted by andyanimal31

To be fair any body that is thinking of annealing needs to look at the AMP website and get some scientific data on annealing..
The blow torch method is proven to be an ineffective hit and miss system.
When brass is worth a small fortune these days use a member of the forum or trademe to get some one to anneal them with their induction amp annealer.
It does make a difference!

Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk

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Whilst I agree amp is the gold standard, I wouldn't go as far as to say anything else is ineffective, I have been hot salt annealing for a while now and like everything in reloading consistency is Important. I set a metronome and make sure I only heat my brass for the same time per case, I also use an aftermarket controller for my melting pot to keep the temp stable and consistent. For sure an amp would be great but I've had very good results just using what I have.
Not as exact as amp annealing, granted - ineffective, no and far better than not doing anything at all.

An interesting side note to this - on looking into salt bath annealing after @dannyb's comments, I came across this article which states "...only the firing process – NOT the re-sizing process – causes this alteration in ductility."

SALT-BATH ANNEALING BY PAUL PARKINSON | Target Shooter Magazine

I can't find the dissertation they refer to, sorry.

His article credibility goes out the window with that starting statement methinks.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

His article credibility goes out the window with that starting statement methinks.

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Found the dissertation here: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://ballisticrecreations.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Ryan-Stevenson-Dissertation.pdf

Don't have time to read all 11,255 words while I am supposed to be working, but from the abstract:

"...The sample sets were designed to study the effects of reloading techniques such as neck turning and cartridge neck annealing. The production of the sample sets required 396 cartridges and 1260 rounds to be fired... The research quantified the hardening of the cartridges over 5 firings and 6 reloading preparation procedures. The firing process was found to have a more significant work hardening effect than that of the reloading procedure... The cartridge neck annealing process was shown to produce variable results. Possible methods of combating the inconsistent annealing results were suggested."

Sounds like a fun study and some interesting bedtime reading.

He doesn't actually say the the sizing process doesn't cause alteration in ductility, just the firing process has a more a significant work hardening effect.

However, I have one Ackley chambering. It has a TIGHT neck like 0.5 thou clearance. There is minimal expansion on firing. Likewise my 6BR which comes close to being able to be reloaded without sizing once fired. Any manipulation with dies causes a far greater amount of working of the brass alloy than during firing. The only difference with firing may be the speed of change.

Also, with the forming of wildcat cases (alright, extreme working) which may be required to be formed using a series of dies, the brass is annealed after every stage, otherwise the forming is generally not successful with splits or collapses.

At any rate, anneal after firing still is the go in fact with his theory definitely straight after firing.

AMP will tell you that their machine actually makes the brass softer than is ideal, knowing that you are about to size the case. Sizing then brings up the hardness to the right point. So dong the steps out of sequence on an AMP means you'd have brass that's too soft.

That machine obviously does things in a very specific way. It must be technically doable to anneal a little less (post sizing) to just soften the brass the right amount - but I wouldn't believe anyone who told me they could do it accurately and reliably with a blow torch or salt bath.

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Originally Posted by Pommy

AMP will tell you that their machine actually makes the brass softer than is ideal, knowing that you are about to size the case. Sizing then brings up the hardness to the right point. So dong the steps out of sequence on an AMP means you'd have brass that's too soft.

That machine obviously does things in a very specific way. It must be technically doable to anneal a little less (post sizing) to just soften the brass the right amount - but I wouldn't believe anyone who told me they could do it accurately and reliably with a blow torch or salt bath.

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I do own and use my AMP machine and what convinces me of why it's so Good is the science behind it all.
The book that Alex wrote gives an amazing insight into how it all came about and why it is really the only option for the perfect anneal every time.
It has taken the reloading world by storm fora very good reason.

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When I first loaded 303B with a press, about 15 yrs ago, I was using 1940s or thereabouts CAC Boxer primed brass and 170gn cast GC boolits. I was very new to reloading rifle. I did 10 with no real issues other than noticing how seating the bullets expanded the neck some. Within 2-3 days after loading most of the necks split. So I read up all I could find, American Forums, on splitting brass and discovered such esoteric things as working brass hardens it, aging makes it brittle, and the answer to such problems is annealing. So I gingerly launched into annealing via the handheld gas torch with brass held in drill and slowly spun while counting to 8 method. Done it that way ever since but dropped using a water bath.

Given I had already resized 100 brass, I then annealed them. No doubt very erratic in terms of consistency and not very scientific. But it worked. Yes, much better to anneal before resizing. Which quickly became my practice. But annealing after I had resized in this instance meant no more neck splits. Awesome!

This is what I do in that order..

1. De-Prime
2. Clean
3. Visual inspection
4. Anneal every few reloads.
5. Lube & lightly lube inside of neck
6. FLRS or neck size
7. Wash/clean and air dry.
8. Trim all cases & de-bur.
9. Prime.
10 Charge. I then check them all using a torch.
11. Seat projectile and check length

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Originally Posted by Jhon

When I first loaded 303B with a press, about 15 yrs ago, I was using 1940s or thereabouts CAC Boxer primed brass and 170gn cast GC boolits. I was very new to reloading rifle. I did 10 with no real issues other than noticing how seating the bullets expanded the neck some. Within 2-3 days after loading most of the necks split. So I read up all I could find, American Forums, on splitting brass and discovered such esoteric things as working brass hardens it, aging makes it brittle, and the answer to such problems is annealing. So I gingerly launched into annealing via the handheld gas torch with brass held in drill and slowly spun while counting to 8 method. Done it that way ever since but dropped using a water bath.

Given I had already resized 100 brass, I then annealed them. No doubt very erratic in terms of consistency and not very scientific. But it worked. Yes, much better to anneal before resizing. Which quickly became my practice. But annealing after I had resized in this instance meant no more neck splits. Awesome!

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1940s CAC Boxer primed? Don't you mean Berdan?

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

This is what I do in that order..

1. De-Prime
2. Clean
3. Visual inspection
4. Anneal every few reloads.
5. Lube & lightly lube inside of neck
6. FLRS or neck size
7. Wash/clean and air dry.
8. Trim all cases & de-bur.
9. Prime.
10 Charge. I then check them all using a torch.
11. Seat projectile and check length

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Same sequence I use and probably many others except I've long since given the washing the flick. Just not necessary. Will depnd upon the lube used of course.

Also the way my set up works is I weigh a charge, tip into case, seat projectile. Whilst I'm seating the projectile my next charge is being dispensed.
The reason I went to weigh one load one is I used to charge all cases then seat. I had a couple of woops when the tray of 20 cases was almost all charged and I bumped the next charge passing over the tray depositing powder in several cases. Couldn't be sure which ones had powder added so redid the whole lot.
Charge one load one for me is no slower than charging a whole tray then seating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Same sequence I use and probably many others except I've long since given the washing the flick. Just not necessary. Will depnd upon the lube used of course.

Also the way my set up works is I weigh a charge, tip into case, seat projectile. Whilst I'm seating the projectile my next charge is being dispensed.
The reason I went to weigh one load one is I used to charge all cases then seat. I had a couple of woops when the tray of 20 cases was almost all charged and I bumped the next charge passing over the tray depositing powder in several cases. Couldn't be sure which ones had powder added so redid the whole lot.
Charge one load one for me is no slower than charging a whole tray then seating.

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Much the same as mine although right from the start I have charged each case and then seated the projectile after looking down into the case to check for powder. Sizing and expanding are often done in two steps, especially when using a Lee Loader for the .303.
GPM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhon

No doubt very erratic in terms of consistency and not very scientific. But it worked. Yes, much better to anneal before resizing. Which quickly became my practice. But annealing after I had resized in this instance meant no more neck splits. Awesome!

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Thanks @Jhon, that's the answer I was looking for!

And yes @zimmer, I agree with the charge + seat each projectile individually. I still wash though (ultrasonic) because I find the clean cases help with the visual inspection.

Given I don't have decapping dies and am not in a position to go out and buy them right now, I de-prime and size in one hit. In that case, should my process be:

1. Anneal
2. De-prime & size
3. Clean
4. Inspect
5. Trim, de-burr, uniform pockets
6. Prime
7. Charge + seat

That makes sense to me.

But this is all I used for years to deprime. You could even make one.

https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/pro...apping-die-pin

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Originally Posted by mopheadrob

Thanks @Jhon, that's the answer I was looking for!

And yes @zimmer, I agree with the charge + seat each projectile individually. I still wash though (ultrasonic) because I find the clean cases help with the visual inspection.

Given I don't have decapping dies and am not in a position to go out and buy them right now, I de-prime and size in one hit. In that case, should my process be:

1. Anneal
2. De-prime & size
3. Clean
4. Inspect
5. Trim, de-burr, uniform pockets
6. Prime
7. Charge + seat

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Yep, all good. No problem depriming and sizing at the same time. I'm guessing 95% of handloaders do that and if using a progressive press that's what happens and the primer pockets most likely get no attention at all. (There's another long standing argument akin to the FLSing versus Neck sizing one ie do primer pockets need cleaning.)

Step 3 before step 2. This is when you may first pick up defects eg a split neck which would render the case for a trip to the bin rather than decap and size and further process it. That's not to say defects won't be picked up once resized or all the way thru the process.
I also clean my brass before it goes thru my dies. A wipe down with Krazy Kloth mainly to remove powder stains up around the neck (used to use white spirits), and a heavy brush inside the necks. That suits my style of shooting but if you're picking up your fired brass from the ground you may need to clean differently. I avoid at all costs any shit going into my dies.

I'm at an age now when I can afford all the gear so I have decapping dies and a hand held Harvey decapper. I have also bought some useless equipment in recent years.

Primer pockets only really need uniforming when the brass is new. I used to uniform the depth of all my new brass' pockets once. Now I don't bother as generally quality brass is quite uniform. But when new I do debur the flash hole inside the case. Only need to do this once. Poorer quality brass where they punch the flash holes has burrs poking out which can affect uniform ignition. You could argue that for hunting ammo this is an uneccessary step but as I said you only need to do it once.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

That makes sense to me.

But this is all I used for years to deprime. You could even make one.

https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/pro...apping-die-pin

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That's all I used for several years when I first started out. A Ramset concrete nail ground down on the end to fit primer pocket flash holes.
To get going I also made many bits and pieces - reloading blocks, funnels, drop tube, mil serp brass primer crimp cutter, various designs of simple primer pocket cleaners, and so on. I have only bought flash harry reloading blocks in recent years but still have and use my old home made wooden blocks.
The quality of ammo loaded in my old wooden blocks is just as good as the commercial plastic ones :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mopheadrob

Thanks all. The consensus confirms what I assumed re. preferably annealing before sizing, but my point was that I'd already sized this batch.

On the basis of @Dicko's comment I might give it a crack with the .243 now, and start annealing the 7WSM next time around.

Yes @andyanimal31, I'd much prefer to use an AMP but need a zero cost option right now.

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Mate I do it for free for forum members. Have a few pilots now as the deal is if I don't have the right one you buy it for me.