Annealing, neck turning all that attention to neck tension and true Centering

Hey guys,
I have not done neck turning or annealing to my brass at all.
I’ve been watching YouTube and listening to some F class shooters anal practices.
Are these just fun bits and nice engineering to play with?
Sure it makes a slight difference, if not, then at least it gives you that confidence boost.
Has anyone had a night and day difference with these practices?
Why do they turn the outside of the neck not the inside?

I got told by my gunsmith I’d have some fun playing with nice equipment and spend some time enjoy my money spent.
But I won’t be getting much result.

Are these flash reloading brass treatment gear just made to make money as new tricks?

I’m interested to hear everyone’s opinion on this.

All that is for the last 5%
If you do all that on a piece of shit rifle, you still got a piece of shit rifle.
If you have a well sorted action, bedded, chambered/reamed with care, done all you can and your looking for more.... Go for it, it all adds up.
Anealing will help the most... Turning is best for tight neck Chambers.

if your a competion shooter every 1000th of an inch gained gives you an advantage over the other guys . . . if your the type of hunter who can't shoot for shit anyway it does'nt matter
anything in-between is all fun

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Originally Posted by bully

All that is for the last 5%
If you do all that on a piece of shit rifle, you still got a piece of shit rifle.
If you have a well sorted action, bedded, chambered/reamed with care, done all you can and your looking for more.... Go for it, it all adds up.
Anealing will help the most... Turning is best for tight neck Chambers.

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Great info, thanks. I get enjoyment out of all reloading practices whether it has a 5% change in accuracy or 50%. Its great to hear what other people have experienced to balance my time and money spent.

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Originally Posted by rossi.45

if your a competion shooter every 1000th of an inch gained gives you an advantage over the other guys . . . if your the type of hunter who can't shoot for shit anyway it does'nt matter

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Not much of a hunter, but sure am not a bad shot. and my rifles are reasonably well set up, and most of them shot well 1/2 moa. That is why i'm going to see if the next step is worth investing my time and money.

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Originally Posted by lee308

Not much of a hunter, but sure am not a bad shot. and my rifles are reasonably well set up, and most of them shot well 1/2 moa. That is why i'm going to see if the next step is worth investing my time and money.

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which raises the questions . . . what animals at what range with which cartridge . . . is .5MOA not good enough already ?

now if you just want to go after the most accuracy i say go for it . . . but do you actually need it is a worth while question to ask yourself

i had a friend that got completely fixated on shooting tiny groups with a very accurate sako . . but seriously only ever shot Deer well inside 200yards, my .30/30 would have been good enough for him if he had been practical . . but whatever spins your wheels, as long as you enjoy yourselfn its all good, just dont kid yourself you need it

+1 for annealing, if you're not doing this already then its likely to give you the best gains. You don't need flash gear, but of course you can go that track if you want. There's also a guy on TradeMe that will do induction annealing for you for ~$25 per 50. I think he's a forum member here too - cant remember his handle. That's probably a good way to start and see what differences you get. See other thread on here recently re impacts of annealing (or not) on case hardening & neck tension.

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Originally Posted by lee308

Not much of a hunter, but sure am not a bad shot. and my rifles are reasonably well set up, and most of them shot well 1/2 moa. That is why i'm going to see if the next step is worth investing my time and money.

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If I was you I would be annealing first. Get the neck tention the same every shot.
Check run-out of fired cases and after sizing. (The neck)
In saying that a factory load in a factory rifle can do .25 at times, maybe .5 is all your rifle can do. if you have worked up you best load, that might be it.... These other things help mostly with consistency.

I anneal everything now, and have to neck turn for some rifles due to tight neck chambers, and/or im necking brass up to a larger dia (which requires neck turning afterwards to remove the thinker base of the neck you end up with).

A combo of annealing and also turning necks so that every case has identical neck thinkness will get you nice consistent neck tension across all your cases. You can obviously fine tune your amount of neck tension with the competition dies you now have.

If you like playing around doing this sort of thing (like i do) then go for it.

I did some testing with my 7mm SAUM when i first started annealing, shot my best ever group with it on the freshly annealed brass (compared to the fired a few times un-annealed brass). There is certainly gains to be had if every other part of the shooting system is up to it.

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Originally Posted by GWH

I anneal everything now, and have to neck turn for some rifles due to tight neck chambers, and/or im necking brass up to a larger dia (which requires neck turning afterwards to remove the thinker base of the neck you end up with).

A combo of annealing and also turning necks so that every case has identical neck thinkness will get you nice consistent neck tension across all your cases. You can obviously fine tune your amount of neck tension with the competition dies you now have.

If you like playing around doing this sort of thing (like i do) then go for it.

I did some testing with my 7mm SAUM when i first started annealing, shot my best ever group with it on the freshly annealed brass (compared to the fired a few times un-annealed brass). There is certainly gains to be had if every other part of the shooting system is up to it.

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After what I've researched a lot on you tube. I was shocked to hear what my gunsmith (who was a champion shooter) reckons. He said he didn't anneal or neck turn none of his brass but have won many championships and set records. He reckons I'll be wasting my time but will get some enjoyment out of playing with the gear if time and money is not a problem.

haha....... hard case guy but a Crack up to chat to.

Good to hear some other people's experiences and opinion.

He's right in a way. If you start with a good brand brass the neck thickness hopefully is fairly good, and probably doesn't make too much difference. Also if he Chuck's his brass after 2 or 3 shots anealing won't mean alot. I've noticed my load go "off" at about six firings in a 223 for the different neck tention.

Also I'm guessing he was in compition a few years ago now.... Reasearch has moved on now... Look at the amp... And there reasearch, which basically says old technices of anealing were way off. Those days are over. Look at who uses a amp and there results, there machines are next level.

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Originally Posted by bully

He's right in a way. If you start with a good brand brass the neck thickness hopefully is fairly good, and probably doesn't make too much difference. Also if he Chuck's his brass after 2 or 3 shots anealing won't mean alot. I've noticed my load go "off" at about six firings in a 223 for the different neck tention.

Also I'm guessing he was in compition a few years ago now.... Reasearch has moved on now... Look at the amp... And there reasearch, which basically says old technices of anealing were way off. Those days are over. Look at who uses a amp and there results, there machines are next level.

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Good points made here, matey.

Annealing is easy to help you get extended life out of your brass bit recent findings show that backyard annealing is rather so so for neck tension consistency.

I did my research on it and for me I found annealing to be not worth the time or the money to add that additional step. For one thing, no way I am going to sit there and do it by hand, so it would have to be using one of the available machines to do it.

For those who don't have the flash machines, how are you doing your annealing? Ive seen the battery drill and blowtorch method but wonder if your results will be just as inconsistent anyway due to the guesswork involved?

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Originally Posted by stagstalker

For those who don't have the flash machines, how are you doing your annealing? Ive seen the battery drill and blowtorch method but wonder if your results will be just as inconsistent anyway due to the guesswork involved?

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Originally Posted by 25 /08 IMP

I made this parts all from Amazon cost under $100.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b95e3ffefe.jpg

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And the results are good? Consistent and improved your group?

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Originally Posted by lee308

And the results are good? Consistent and improved your group?

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I'm yet to try as new rifle and new brass but should make brass last longer and easier to size.

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Brass longevity is important.
My my case 100 pieces 338 brass @$6.50 each, I only need 2.3 extra firings per piece to make an AMP worthwhile for that caliber alone.
Worth the gamble and now I get to anneal all my caliber every reload.

We used to stand them in a tray of water (20-odd yrs ago) and run a torch over exposed-necks, seemed to work...made me feel confident about the whole process LOL

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Originally Posted by lee308

After what I've researched a lot on you tube. I was shocked to hear what my gunsmith (who was a champion shooter) reckons. He said he didn't anneal or neck turn none of his brass but have won many championships and set records. He reckons I'll be wasting my time but will get some enjoyment out of playing with the gear if time and money is not a problem.
haha....... hard case guy but a Crack up to chat to.

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This view of annealing is worth thinking about, ideally from an unbiased perspective, if it is possible to set aside for a moment the amount already invested in commitment to annealing. Whether you believe that annealing improves neck tension consistency, or whether it actually does, are two different things. The latter requires a metallurgical explanation that I have yet to see, and the passing of time or improvements in annealing equipment are not changing the underlying physics.
Annealing can help stop necks from splitting from work hardening though - if brass in that condition is not going to be replaced with new.

Another factor is case reforming - any significant shift in the brass will require annealing, maybe more than once. My first efforts at turning 308Win into 243Win cracked at the necks because I did not know that the necks needed to be annealed.

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Originally Posted by rupert

Another factor is case reforming - any significant shift in the brass will require annealing, maybe more than once. My first efforts at turning 308Win into 243Win cracked at the necks because I did not know that the necks needed to be annealed.

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reforming into a different cartridge would be fun to do. but I'm not going to do that for my match rifle and match ammo just because me being me don't trust the engineering skills of myself.

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Originally Posted by stagstalker

For those who don't have the flash machines, how are you doing your annealing? Ive seen the battery drill and blowtorch method but wonder if your results will be just as inconsistent anyway due to the guesswork involved?

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I hold my cases one by one by the base over my little camping stove and heat the neck evenly until its almost too hot to hold and then plunge the case into water. Some times I wear a leather glove.

Its fixed the splitting neck problem I was having with one lot of 300 SAUM brass so I do it with all my calibers now except for my .223.

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Originally Posted by Puffin

This view of annealing is worth thinking about, ideally from an unbiased perspective, if it is possible to set aside for a moment the amount already invested in commitment to annealing. Whether you believe that annealing improves neck tension consistency, or whether it actually does, are two different things. The latter requires a metallurgical explanation that I have yet to see, and the passing of time or improvements in annealing equipment are not changing the underlying physics.
Annealing can help stop necks from splitting from work hardening though - if brass in that condition is not going to be replaced with new.

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What I do know, is that before I started annealing, with the continual firing and resizing of brass I use to feel the increasing resistence to sizing the brass and even more noticeable was the increased pressure needed to seat bullets in sized cases compared to when they were new or fired less number of times.

After I started annealing the feel or pressure to seat bullets is now always consistent across all brass, I generally anneal every second firing.

How much is that AMP gear? I think it’s cheaper and easier to just buy good new brass. Lapua 308 is only $1.5 each. 5 fires out of it is pretty good value already. Then just use them for another 5 times as plinking close range ammo. I’ve fired some of my brass 12 times and haven’t seen any splits.

But I do use bushing dies all the time for precision reloading. Set the neck size reasonably loose so it’s not working the brass as hard as the standard dies which is usually 4-6 thousandth too tight.

Proper annealing is not so much about extending brass life, which it does, but more so about achieving uniform neck tension and thus better accuracy.

Have a look at the latest testing done by AMP. Good reading: https://www.ampannealing.com/article...he-microscope/

AMP manufacture their state of art annealer here in NZ. Well worth the money IMHO and their customer service is brilliant.

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Originally Posted by 25 /08 IMP

I made this parts all from Amazon cost under $100.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b95e3ffefe.jpg

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That's a pretty cool little setup. I would be keen to know some more details on what you used to put it together.

If brass is annealed inconsistently for example the necks are not all heated to the same temp / time due to guesswork, is it still worthwhile or are you just incurring inconsistent results on the other end?

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Originally Posted by stagstalker

That's a pretty cool little setup. I would be keen to know some more details on what you used to put it together.

If brass is annealed inconsistently for example the necks are not all heated to the same temp / time due to guesswork, is it still worthwhile or are you just incurring inconsistent results on the other end?

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I'll try and find you the link and send to you

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Originally Posted by 10-Ring

Proper annealing is not so much about extending brass life, which it does, but more so about achieving uniform neck tension and thus better accuracy.

Have a look at the latest testing done by AMP. Good reading: https://www.ampannealing.com/article...he-microscope/

AMP manufacture their state of art annealer here in NZ. Well worth the money IMHO and their customer service is brilliant.

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What a great article and all measured scientifically and recorded.
I now feel justified in my purchase of the AMP annealer as I reckon that my bullet seating pressure's have felt more even.
Interesting about the gas sealing as I used to get that and just realised after buying and using the annealler it has stopped.
Go figure!

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Originally Posted by stagstalker

For those who don't have the flash machines, how are you doing your annealing? Ive seen the battery drill and blowtorch method but wonder if your results will be just as inconsistent anyway due to the guesswork involved?

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I use a candle myself, my milsurps are too inaccurate to tell if it improves accuracy but I do it to extend case life.

Your question about consistency in annealing goes to the heart of the matter: is annealing a matter of degrees, or is it either achieved or not? If it's a matter of degrees, then an automated machine is the only way to go, if it's mainly a matter of just doing it or not then most methods will do.

I suspect that a lot of what we call "annealing" is actually not "annealing" but "stress relief" which can be achieved at lower temperatures.

Heat Treating of Copper and Copper Alloys

My view is that annealing and neck turning has its place as far as making brass last and chamber in certain rifles but as far as it being some magical answer to shooting tiny little groups? That's what they call in the medical world "the placebo effect" you can do all sorts of things to try and achieve accuracy but theres always a massive flaw in the system and that's the big floppy piece of meat with a heartbeat and a need to breathe hanging onto the trigger.

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Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

My view is that annealing and neck turning has its place as far as making brass last and chamber in certain rifles but as far as it being some magical answer to shooting tiny little groups? That's what they call in the medical world "the placebo effect" you can do all sorts of things to try and achieve accuracy but theres always a massive flaw in the system and that's the big floppy piece of meat with a heartbeat and a need to breathe hanging onto the trigger.

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So... buy a bipod or an AMP annealer.... let me see... (-:

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Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

My view is that annealing and neck turning has its place as far as making brass last and chamber in certain rifles but as far as it being some magical answer to shooting tiny little groups? That's what they call in the medical world "the placebo effect" you can do all sorts of things to try and achieve accuracy but theres always a massive flaw in the system and that's the big floppy piece of meat with a heartbeat and a need to breathe hanging onto the trigger.

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It's not a magical answer to accuracy as you say. However, in an accurate firearm with a good shooter, uniform neck tension is something that contributes to increased accuracy. As repeatable accuracy comes from consistency of all factors involved. Some of the world's best competition shooters use the AMP annealer. They wouldn't be doing that if it was a waste of time and money.

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Originally Posted by Cordite

I suspect that a lot of what we call "annealing" is actually not "annealing" but "stress relief" which can be achieved at lower temperatures.

Heat Treating of Copper and Copper Alloys

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Recovery is the term usually used in brasses, though the early stages of recovery are sometimes referred to as stress relieving. The reasons this might be applied are referred to in the article. Reloaders aim for some degree of recrystallisation requiring higher temperatures.

Consistency, repeatability...

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Originally Posted by 10-Ring

It's not a magical answer to accuracy as you say. However, in an accurate firearm with a good shooter, uniform neck tension is something that contributes to increased accuracy. As repeatable accuracy comes from consistency of all factors involved. Some of the world's best competition shooters use the AMP annealer. They wouldn't be doing that if it was a waste of time and money.

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I deffinately agree any induction annealing is worthwhile....now. Made my own regular gas one but i could never get my sd and es right down with it. I got far better results just shooting a no neck turn chamber and loading the brass back up after a shoulder bump.