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This is the beauty of AR2208 and AR2206h. Incredibly versatile powders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_School
I ownd a 223 and 30.06. I use AR2208 for both.
Am I getting max velocity? Nope, but I can load both with most available bullets. And I doubt the foxes or deer notice the difference.
Just a follow up.
Suggest when the 2209 runs our buy AR2208.
Sort of.... It kind of goes along lines of....and bear in mind rough guide...one grain of powder more per ten grains less projectiles...or minimum for light will be closer to maximum for next weight up n vice versa. So hot load for say 174 will be mild for 150.... Someone gave you this information weeks ago via photo of lee loader chart. Charge X for projectiles between Y&ZQuote:
Originally Posted by Old_School
What powders (faster than 2209) do you currently have on the shelf? From a bunch of research I've done on reduced rifle loads, it seems that several of the faster burning single base extruded powders can be used in a similar fashion to 2206H, but you need to have some idea where the pressure limits are at the top end, and what's a reasonable starting load. I often use the Lyman Cast bullet handbook as a starting guide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_School
What ranges will you be shooting at with the 120gn projectiles? And do you want to have approximately the same ballistics as the 174gn but softer shooting? Or get more speed and a flatter trajectory?
Given the scarcity of 2206H at the moment, H4198 (same as AR2207) is also a useful one for reduced rifle loads, if that is your goal. I have an accurate load for my 308 that uses a 125gn Targex bullet at 2350 fps from a 16.5" barrel, using 36gn of 2207. Loaded up for if I am taking my boy hunting with the 308 single shot, good for out to 250m on deer. But in reality its much nicer to shoot, and POI is close enough to normal load to 200m I'm tempted to use it more often myself.
You should try 130 GRN Speer HP. Anything else pales in comparison ,hand grenades they have been called.in saying that the few 125grn TNT I tried didn't exit even small wallabies so should be ideal going slowly.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjp
He only has abt 30 odd bullets he intends to blst away at the range. No way he will be buying 500grams of powder just for that when all he needs as abt 80grams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_School
But he could buy some 2208 and use that in the future once the 2209 is used up. To me that's the most sensible option.
Greetings,
Another source of data for lighter projectiles in the .303 would be that for the .30-40 Krag. This was a near copy of the .303 with similar capacity. The Hodgdons/ ADI data is minimal but older manuals like the Speer No 9 and contemporary Lyman manual from the mis 1970's both list it. AR2209and even H4350 did not exist then but loads are listed for IMR 4350. The Speer 30-40 loads for the 130 grain in IMR4895 and IMR4064 are close to those for the .303 with AR2206H and AR2208 respectively which are close in speed. In the 30-40 for IMR4350, which is similar in speed to current AR2209, loads run from 48 to 52 grains with velocities from 2,239 to 2,530 fps respectively in their 21" barrel Krag rifle. In your rifle capacity is likely to rule. The Lyman manual listed a start load of 47 grains of IMY4350 for 2,240 fps in a 22 inch barrelled Krag so that might be a start point.
GPM.
Yes I can see that now after doing a few test loads, Im kind of limited by how much you can fit in the case with this stuff with a 174 grain load too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbloke
A max load with this powder will overfill the case, depending on the thickness of the brass it seems, interestingly enough the old CAC brass holds more powder when i did some tests compared to HXP.
So the big advantage with faster burning powders is that you can use it for lighter loads, i basically got recommended by this powder by a reloader who said it was good for the heavy loads and kind on the brass if you want to reload, others here have also said the same thing, but from what I can tell, 2208 is still a relatively slow burning powder, so probably little concern?
Yes, i want to try this, along with 2206H.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbloke
Big problem is this powder is going to take ages for me to get through!
I guess its handy to have a variety of powders on hand, but I will try and look for some half used powders to do some testing with.
I dont have anything else other than this 2209 as its my first and only powder ive bought as someone starting out, this may have been a bit of a mistake to go for this powder, however it seems to perform OK for my heavy loads which I will be shooting mostly anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjp
I was at the range in the weekend and a club member had his chronograph which meant I was able to test some of my loads I made, I will post the data on the first thread I started on the subject.
basically I learned that my loads of 46.5grain are not enough to get the 2400fps, but my HXP factory loads were no where near 2400fps either, perhaps this was intentional, or its the age of them?
The guy in our club went into quite a bit of technical stuff with me and told me how to plot a chart with fps per grain to work out a suitable load, but continued to tell me that 2209 seems to be a bit of the "in" powder for 303 at the moment, but not necessarily the best.
He also told me 2208 is a better powder, and that 2206H is better again, said to me that a good load with 2208 is about 39 grains.
I was also told that he went down the same rabbit hole as me trying to attain the 2440fps load and that its better to find a load that suits the barrel harmonics which turns out to be quite a deep subject.
I dont know if I have to go that far or not, but apparently 2206H is a good substitute for cordite loads, but i hear the same about 3031, i get the impression 3031 is still a much hotter powder than 2206H however.
Anyway as far as these lighter projectiles go, I only intended to make use of them as a usable load for plinking, nothing more, would probably shoot them at 100M or so, just to use them up rather than throw them out, since ive pulled a few random sized projectiles from old ammo.
Yes I do recall seeing that chart, I probably wont mess around using the 2209 with them anyway, but will hang on to them and make some more reliable loads when I get my hands on a faster burning powder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
I have some loads for my 30-40 Krag for plinking/range loads, only doing 1700 fps which is fine for the range at 100m. But that's using a flake shotgun/pistol powder, another different rabbit hole to go down, so lets not go there at the moment!
2206H has pretty much run out at the moment, though hopefully we'll see it back on the shelves by the end of the year (or early next year, who knows). Not much if any 2208 around too. Lots of people use 2208, and you are much more likely to find someone willing to sell you a bit of 2208.
I'm a technical person, and I like to know how things work, and experiment (safely!). Using one of the reload modelling tools (GRT - Gordons Reloading Tool), it shows that slower powder (say 2209) needs more barrel time to get complete burn (compared to say 2208), which is accomplished by either a heavier projectile or longer barrel, compared to 2208 or 2206h. Hence why the recommendation for a faster powerder such as 2206h or 2208 for the lighter projectile.
For example, I use 2208 for 58gn projectile in my 243, but use 2209 for the 85-100gn projectiles. Barrel length is 22".
In my 24" barrel 308 I was using 2208 for 125gn projectile at 2850 fps, but was only getting 2550 fps in my 16.5" 308 with same load - the same velocity as my load with 168gn projectile. I now load the 125gn with 2219, and am getting 2820 fps from the shorter barrel, and 3050 fps in the 24" barrel (also its a hotter load). Longer barrel is still faster, but not by as much (230 fps faster powder vs 300 fps with slower powder).
When selecting a powder, I'm aiming for 95% burn or higher in the barrel in GRT simulations, on the simple theory (and I could be wrong) that a more complete burn in barrel should result in more consistent velocities, all other things being equal, along with it being an "efficient" load (i.e. you are burning powder to push the bullet, not just make a big muzzle flash!) Whether this is true in practice I don't know, but it seems to work for me. I'm also not chasing top velocities. I'm not a long range marksman (though definitely has some aspirations to develop), to me its more important to have accuracy/precision than speed. For hunting there are projectiles that will do what they are supposed to out to longer ranges than I can comfortably shoot, so appropriate projectile choice can make up for lower muzzle velocities in my case.
Looking at reloading data, most rifle data is for longer barrels (24") than most people seem to be using these days, so actual velocities will be lower than what's in the load data.
Greetings All,
A bit more about my .30-40. Sometime prior to 1980 a pretty rough Martini Enfield appeared in my rifle cupboard. I had been given a couple of take out .308 barrels from target rifles and one found its way onto the Martini cut of at the breech and chambered for .30-30 in 1981. It shot well with a basic fore sight and a bent piece of metal with a hole drilled in it for a rear. A period of safe curing lasted until 1996 when the chamber was recut to .30-40 Krag. An even longer period of safe curing lasted until 2016 when the rifle was fitted with a 4 power scope. More faffing about followed and some loads tested. The rifle has a 1 in 12" twist and has a 24" heavy barrel. With the 150 grain Hornady 38 grains of AR2206H chronographed 2,192 fps and 40 grains of AR2208 2,220 fps. Cases were reformed .303 WW Super. The AR2206H load produced 2,380 fps in my .308 Win. Clearly the Krag case has a little more capacity. More testing is required. Should only take another 20 years or so.
GPM.
Greetings again,
In my No4 with a 25 inch barrel 34 grains of AR2206H produced 2,060 fps with salvaged 150 grain Norma projectiles in Norma cases. 38 grains should produce around 2,250 fps more or less.
GPM.
Some long & complicated posts here. Even longer thread. And it's all about finding a load to plink 20 or 30 salvaged bullets. :O_O: :smash:
That would make sense, all my barrels are 24 inches so no problems there.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjp
So if you see a good amount of muzzle flash, that means there is likely some incomplete burning happening? I should compare my loads at night and see how the muzzle flash compares between my loads and a factory load.
Ive heard quite a bit about the shortage of powders a little while back, last time it was mostly shotgun powders that were out of stock, now it seems to be rifle powder thats in short supply.
lol, sorry if im a pain, but ive learned a great deal here on reloading over the last couple of weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbloke
I was just hoping i could have made use of the same powder with these light bullets, but im happy to put them aside for later.
Thanks, that gives me something to work with, i really should find a selection of powders to experiment with going forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpamac
Might be just waiting a few months until they are back on the shelves again, or ask nicely on the forum, there might be a local with a decent stash willing to part with a bit. Like someone mentioned earlier, you only need around 80grams to load up the few you have.
"lol, sorry if im a pain,"
@Old_School
Your not the pain.
It's the few here (on other forums too) who think they are big noteing them selves by posting long winded posts that are simply, no help, or provide irrelevant info, or have zero common sense.
Lets face it, who is going to spend perhaps $80 for powder inorder to load 20-30 plinking rounds and be left with say,,,400grams of powder that your unlikely to ever use.
They are simply time waisters.