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Some advice please?
I understand the advantage of getting the highest velocity out of your load to minimise time of flight and thus drop/drift, but what is better:
2709 ave velocity, printing 0.6MOA groups or
2650 ave velocity, printing 0.5MOA groups or
2600 ave velocity, printing 0.3 MOA groups?
It is a Howa 6.5 Creedmoor shooting 143gr ELD-X.
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The 0.3moa loaf. Accuracy much more important than velocity.
You can correct wind drift and drop but you can't correct base accuracy, simple as that !
Running my Bergara HMR 6.5CM with the 143gr ELD-X @ only 2559 fps. Shot a 12 pointer this February at 425m and he didn't complain...
No brainer buddy. The only payoff for lowered wind drift and compromised accuracy is if it's blowing it's tits off and/or u have no idea of the true wind direction. So don't bother shooting LR then anyways !
So what ranges are you shooting at?Quote:
Originally Posted by LRP
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@JaSa out of interest what powder you using ?
5 shot group @ 100m of 40gr AR2209 in Hornady brass and Federal LR Primer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie
https://i.ibb.co/mStZ7SH/0-46MOA.jpg
What sort of velocity and sd are you getting with this load?Quote:
Originally Posted by JaSa
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https://i.ibb.co/m61fMLx/IMG-1648.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by janleroux
Put it this way : I have some serious LR gear that I've totally built and gunsmithed myself but see no point in shooting at animals out far enough to the point where luck becomes a major factor in a hit, let alone a humane one. It proves nothing, least of all that I'm a great shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by janleroux
At either end of the day when the wind is usually minimal some LR hits are truly possible, but firstly to my mind that means using a BIG HEAVY full custom rifle with top level components and ergonomics. Or at least be using a rifle that's actually capable of top level and consistent ( not one great wallet group ) accuracy.
It's a very cool past time that I'm totally addicted to. Just keep it real.
I’d be asking some other questions like - how reproducible are these results? How consistent are the numbers ? Speed and group size ?
Are these from single 3 shot groups ? Or 5 ? Or multiple 3x?
What’s the shape of each group ?
It’s pretty easy for the shooter to slightly push or pull one shot. Shooter technique or slight variations of could make a 0.3 grp into 0.6 and on a good day vice versa.
Personally I’d doubt that there’s any statistical difference between 0.5 and 0.6 unless you’ve got a heap of data behind it.
I’d be running some more groups before making decisions. Might be worth experimenting with seating depth too ?
You might find that all 3 loads are actually all around 0.4 moa +/- 0.2 ?
In which case you can take your pick
Hi @chainsaw,Quote:
Originally Posted by chainsaw
Valid points you are pointing out.
I had an ES of 2 (3 round test groups) at the lowest velocity, and also the best grouping.
On the higher node I have an ES of about 11.
But yesterday I went to the range to practice some fundamentals. But at some point I decided to run 5 rounds over the crony - just to check, and I got an ES of 21. The higher node I thought was it, is obviously not as stable as I thought it was, hence why I am again looking at the other nodes I found.
I was very thorough with my handloads so I know my powder measurements were correct. When I did the load development I only used fireformed brass that was neck-sized only. Yesterday’s shooting was all with brass that was full-length sized.
This is what the best performing group looked like:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5a0fb996f9.jpg
The others were more clover shaped but a bit more open.
My worry is that I might be chasing a high velocity node just for the sake to get most out of the round at say 1000y competition shooting, but now I am second guessing my decision making and node selection.
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[QUOTE=janleroux;884848]Some advice please?
I understand the advantage of getting the highest velocity out of your load to minimise time of flight and thus drop/drift, but what is better:
2709 ave velocity, printing 0.6MOA groups or
2650 ave velocity, printing 0.5MOA groups or
2600 ave velocity, printing 0.3 MOA groups?
It is a Howa 6.5 Creedmoor shooting 143gr ELD-X.
@janleroux - it seems you are on a similar journey to the one I embarked on just over a year ago. And what a learning curve it has been!
I also have a (hunting weight) Howa 6.5 Creedmoor with 20" barrel, suppressor and Hogue stock that I bedded myself.
I'm curious to know - are you doing long range shooting on paper/steel, or for hunting?
Some things I have learned in the last year - Howa rifles are capable of exceptional performance when set up AND DRIVEN CORRECTLY... The major lesson I have learned is that the collection of wobbly organic bits pointing the rifle downrange are by far the biggest factor that can be improved (hence the emphasis :) ).
Other useful things I've learned (about MY rifle, usual caveats apply):1) Hornady Eld-M projectiles are very tolerant of different amounts of jump to the rifling.
2) 140 grain Eld-M go about 100fps faster with the exact same case, primer and amount of 2209 than the 143 Eld-X (and the BC is higher).
3) Alliant Re16 gives ever so slightly higher velocities grain for grain than 2209 and is stunningly accurate with my 143 Eld-X hunting load (set at 2.850 OAL as that is maximum magazine feed length.
4) Learning to shoot consistently is fun and fascinating and sometimes frustrating.
If you're shooting paper or steel, have you considered the 147 Eld-M instead of the 143 Eld-X? If 1000 yard/meter shooting is your objective then the extra BC is really useful. It's highly likely that you'll be able to get a load with 2209 that shoots 0.5" or under in your rifle without chasing super high velocity. For range use single loading you can load them out close to the rifling (20 thou away has worked for me with the 140 and 123) and experiment with powder charge to find a consistent load. Then go load up a couple of hundred and go shooting!
Just my thoughts FWIW. And remember to have fun - try not to get hung up on overthinking it all!
[QUOTE=Steelisreal;885042]Ahh mate - you are so describing what I am going through.Quote:
Originally Posted by janleroux
Mine: Howa with a 24” in a GRS Bifrost stock. Also did a pillar and bedding job on it. Very happy with the rifle and I know it can shoot.
I would say 90% paper/steel shooting, 10% hunting.
I worked up loads from 37.5gr to 42.5gr with
H4350 in Hornady brass for both 140 ELD-M and 143 ELD-X. Three rounds with 0.5gr increments. I measure to the ogive, but similar to you I mag length determines my COAL, which is quite a jump to the lands.
In my rifle the ELD-X’s gave multiple nodes with ES below 10, but the best ES I could get out of the 140 ELD-M’s were 15. Speed on ELD-M’s only slightly better. So I settled on the ELD-X since it would also mean one setup for hunting and target shooting.
I did try 147gr ELD-M - factory ammo only. Did not get nearly the same groupings as what I got with the 140 and 143 factory ammo, and the rifle kicks more and sounds significantly louder (not sure if this makes sense, but it feels as if I am stressing the rifle with these 147’s)
Yeah, I am keen to just get out learning and working in my fundamentals (I am definitely a wobbly bit that needs some work ;). But that would only make sense if I actually selected a good and forgiving speed node that will keep performing the same even at different temperatures.
But for my next move, I think I am going to take one of the lower speed nodes and load 5 rounds 0.1gr either side of the node and see if the ES and groupings stay the same.
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Don't over complicate things. Some people spend too much time chasing the lowest SD and muck around with seating depth, etc.
In your case (being new and still learning) I would suggest to stick with the very descend load you posted a picture of and get some trigger time and practice instead !!! Once you can honestly say that you can shoot better then the load, go back and see if you can optimize it. But at the moment I have a feeling that you are the biggest variable in the game and not the load. Not meaning it in a offensive way at all.
The component manufacturers are not going to be happy with such candid comments about "the shooter being the weakest link". True but !
Some Hornady G1 BC values vs the Litz numbers : 140ELDM .646/Litz .587 ; 143ELDX .625/Litz .581 ; 147ELDM .697/Litz .617.
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No offence taken. Good advice which I am happy to follow :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JaSa
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