Brass FL Sizing Trouble

Hi guys,

Got a question for the more knowledgeable, first time reloading for my brother's 6.5x55, specifically I've started resizing his Lapua brass (second hand with unknown firings) with a Redding type S FL bushing die. Firstly, I annealed the brass, then measured the shoulder at 1.7590 using Hornady comparator and headspace bushing. I also measured some once fired (from brother's rifle) Hornady and Federal brass for a baseline, which measured very similar at 1.7585 - 1.7595. This is the first time I've used a type S FL bushing die, there were no instructions in the box. A quick Youtube and I got started with screwing die into touch shell holder and back off 1/4 turn.

So here's my confusion, I lubed and sized a few pieces of brass and measured the shoulder again, 1.7620 consistently. Shoulder has grown by 3 thousandths. I was aiming to bump the shoulder back 2 thousandths, so I continued to screw the die in further but no bump to the shoulder. My only conclusion, my assumption that I could use the shoulder measurement from the once fired Hornady and Federal brass is incorrect, and the baseline measurement is no good, those pieces of brass may not have been fully fire formed to brother's chamber? Either that or the die is too long which doesn't seem likely. Interested to hear others thoughts. When I chamber the sized Lapua brass with now slightly longer shoulder, it feels like there is just fractionally more resistance than the un-sized brass. If the shoulder was indeed too long for the chamber would there be significant resistance when closing the bolt, or could I even do so? Always looking to learn, thanks in advance.

Regards,
Joel

Are you using the decapping pin? Is there a lot of resistance on the up stroke?
Try resizing without it. I use the same dies and while good it took a bit of mucking around to get them to work a small bump as well. If using the decapping spigot, especially after anealling you will likely be pulling the neck back up changing the readings you're getting off the shoulder.
I have even had to grind some length off one of my dies for a custom cartridge.


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Hi @R93,

No, I should have mentioned I removed the center stem and the decapping pin. I setup the die with just the bushing placed first into top of the die, then the black threaded nut that screws onto the center stem (to take up the space), followed by the top locking cap screw. Twisted the cap screw down until contact was made with the bushing, then backed off about 1/16 turn so the bushing could align and 'float'.

Regards,
Joel

Greetings Joel,
The reason the case got longer is that as the case is FL sized it is squeezed down in diameter. This causes the case to become longer as the brass is squeezed toward the neck. From your description your resized cases now chamber with slight resistance which is exactly what you want. Lock your die at that. If you measure case lengths before and after sizing you will likely find they have grown slightly and may need to be trimmed before loading. This is all normal.
In my experience partial full length sizing, as you have done, works best in the 6.6x55 and neck sizing works best in the .308 and other less tapered cases. I would stick with the Lapua brass if you can. The US 6.5 brass has much thinner necks and would need a different bushing.
Regards Grandpamac

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joelhenton

Hi @R93,

No, I should have mentioned I removed the center stem and the decapping pin. I setup the die with just the bushing placed first into top of the die, then the black threaded nut that screws onto the center stem (to take up the space), followed by the top locking cap screw. Twisted the cap screw down until contact was made with the bushing, then backed off about 1/16 turn so the bushing could align and 'float'.

Regards,
Joel

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Sounds like you have it sussed. Case just lengthened thru the process and not a huge issue but does defeat the purpose of a FL resize if your are being picky. Did you get a body die with the set?
What bushings have you got? Try working down to your smallest if you have more. May help a little.
Running a 6.5 my ideal bushing is .293 but I have to run .290 with Lapua and norma brass.
Bushing has nothing to do with sizing the case so you could try winding the die down a fraction of a turn to get your ideal length. Press and shell holder can handle a couple extra thou. But just be careful. Failing that get the die or shell holder ground a bit.

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Hi @grandpamac,

I expected the case to lengthen overall from end to end with FL re-sizing but not from the base to the shoulder datum line after FL sizing... Which made me think after the next firing it may continue to grow and I might then be able to bump the shoulder using the die. I made the assumption the US brass would fit his chamber after one firing. So used the measurement at datum line from those cases to calculate the shoulder bump I would need. Screwing down the die until it touched the shellholder provided no shoulder bump at all.

Joel

Bushing dies typically don't size the shoulder-neck junction by design. They can be set up to push the majority of the outer shoulder back but you are probably developing a larger radius at that point that you can then feel in the chamber via the bolt. As R93 has mentioned above, you'd need the body die or a conventional full-length sizing die to address that part of the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R93

Sounds like you have it sussed. Case just lengthened thru the process and not a huge issue but does defeat the purpose of a FL resize if your are being picky. Did you get a body die with the set?
What bushings have you got? Try working down to your smallest if you have more. May help a little.
Running a 6.5 my ideal bushing is .293 but I have to run .290 with Lapua and norma brass.
Bushing has nothing to do with sizing the case so you could try winding the die down a fraction of a turn to get your ideal length. Press and shell holder can handle a couple extra thou. But just be careful. Failing that get the die or shell holder ground a bit.

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@R93 no body die, just picked up the 1 Redding die. Unfortunately I just have a .289 bushing on hand, we got it months ago intending to load his US brass but now he has the Lapua that's the obvious choice. No doubt it will be working the neck more than is desirable, once I've got some loads worked up I'll measure the neck and get the best sized bushing. I suppose I could anneal the brass again and use my 6.5 Sinclair expander mandrel which might give 1 thou neck tension.

Thanks,
Joel

Just be careful if FLSing so there is still bolt resistance. I used to always do it that way (could just feel resistance at the final point of closure) but now aim for 1 thou clearance ie no bolt resistance when closing. If you have resistance ensure you always lube the locking lugs as you risk galling. At any rate, reading your first post no resistance was your aim.

I have just measured some new Lapua 6.5 SM brass using my Hornady comparator with the C bush. I got a measurement which is close to your 1.762 but is probably of no relevance due to maybe small differences between my comparator and yours. I was hoping to give you a factory unfired number which is what I would work to with second hand brass.

My new unturned Lapua brass runs at 14 thou neck wall thickness. It could however differ slightly lot to lot, but at 14 thou I would expect to use a 0.290 bush which would give approx. half thou spring back for 1.5 thou neck tension. For hunting ammo I would go 0.289.

Another thing I have now gone away from is using bushing dies with expander stems remove. I now always FLS and reduce the neck to a couple of thou below required and then use an expander mandrel to get the required neck tension.

Greetings Joel,
As your die setting is providing good results right now I would just keep using it and see if any problems develop. I suspect that they won't. I have my FL die for my 6.5 adjusted and locked so the sized cases just chamber. My die just barely sizes the necks so is much in line with what you are achieving with your FL bushing die. It is possible that the fired cases you are using have been fired with light loads which makes the cases a little shorter to the shoulder as the case is driven forward by the primer and not expanded by the pressure. For me I would just work with what you now have and turn the die down a smidgen more if chambering becomes tight. If the case lengthens on sizing the shoulder moves with it. Put the comparator in a drawer for now.
Regards Grandpamac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joelhenton

@R93 no body die, just picked up the 1 Redding die. Unfortunately I just have a .289 bushing on hand, we got it months ago intending to load his US brass but now he has the Lapua that's the obvious choice. No doubt it will be working the neck more than is desirable, once I've got some loads worked up I'll measure the neck and get the best sized bushing. I suppose I could anneal the brass again and use my 6.5 Sinclair expander mandrel which might give 1 thou neck tension.

Thanks,
Joel

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Bit of an expence but I would just buy a FL die and maybe a body die. I always necksized and liked a bit of resistance when chambering with a wee shoulder bump. I'm a full convert to FL resizing every load now. Results on paper and over the chrony cant be argued with in my case. Not to mention peace of mind using a blaser primarily. They don't like things out of spec.
I just use the decapping pin with no expander on the FL die for the life of the case.
I then run again thru the bushing die to try and keep a consistent neck tension. Hence needing the .290 bushing. Like Zimmer for case runout I ensure my bushing is set right but personally still do not use the expander.

Body die will give you 1-2 extra loads before having to biff the case if you're tight arse like me[emoji16]

You wanna see the look on some of my hunting clients faces when I pull out my pin pointer to find brass the have ejected in a hurry.
Always in my pack. Its found more spent brass than gold which is unfortunate.

Yes.....I have issues[emoji1787]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4ab09a95a8.jpg

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Are you using the correct shell holder?

Ive struck this exact same issue when i first started reloading for a 6.5x55. I had the wrong shell holder, i got the right one and problem solved.

Like you, initially even with the die bottomed out hard on the shell holder i couldnt bump the shoulder enough, with the correct shell holder i could.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Puffin

Bushing dies typically don't size the shoulder-neck junction by design. They can be set up to push the majority of the outer shoulder back but you are probably developing a larger radius at that point that you can then feel in the chamber via the bolt. As R93 has mentioned above, you'd need the body die or a conventional full-length sizing die to address that part of the case.

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Hi @Puffin and @R93, I thought the Redding Type S FL bushing dies are designed like a conventional FL die, but gives you the option to use a bushing for controlling how much neck tension you end up with. I thought it should be able to bump the shoulder back like any FL sizing die can. And so wouldn't removing the bushing then just render the die a body die so to speak? Or have I got this all wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GWH

Are you using the correct shell holder?

Ive struck this exact same issue when i first started reloading for a 6.5x55. I had the wrong shell holder, i got the right one and problem solved.

Like you, initially even with the die bottomed out hard on the shell holder i couldnt bump the shoulder enough, with the correct shell holder i could.

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Thanks GWH, interesting... I have a Hornady #19 shellholder which I believe is the correct shellholder for the 6.5x55, though it's not a Redding. We've ended up with the Redding die as a stand alone, not a full set of dies that would include a shellholder.

Regards,
Joel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joelhenton

Hi @Puffin and @R93, I thought the Redding Type S FL bushing dies are designed like a conventional FL die, but gives you the option to use a bushing for controlling how much neck tension you end up with. I thought it should be able to bump the shoulder back like any FL sizing die can. And so wouldn't removing the bushing then just render the die a body die so to speak? Or have I got this all wrong?

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I agree and thought the same about the bushing dies. Before I had a FL die I had the bushing die ground down as I havent until recently, used shell holders (Forster Co-Ax press)
I have heard plenty of guys having the same issue with the bushing dies.
A body die has higher tolerances than a sizing die in my experience and will bring the body of the case down near the base back into spec not so much the shoulder.

I can get a sized case with some resistance even tho I have the desired bump. Run it thru a body die and its back to somewhat normal without bumping the shoulder much.
When I have a case that needs a body die its usually at the end of its life but I can get a couple extra loads out of them and just use them for bush hunting or confirming zero.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by joelhenton

Thanks GWH, interesting... I have a Hornady #19 shellholder which I believe is the correct shellholder for the 6.5x55, though it's not a Redding. We've ended up with the Redding die as a stand alone, not a full set of dies that would include a shellholder.

Regards,
Joel

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Some brands of shell holders will accept 308 sized brass and 6.5x55. A few years ago I upgraded my shellholders and now use a RCBS #2 or a Redding E-Z #7 for the Swede.
The Redding E-Z #7 will fit my 6.5 SM but I need a Redding E-Z #2 for my 7.5x55 SR. The difference lies not in the rim diameter but the rim thickness.
The RCBS #2 will accept both the Swede and the Swiss cartridges. It's not as tight in its tolerances as the Redding.

One trick if your FLSing die has bottomed out in the press and you still have not pushed the shoulder back enough is to insert a feeler gauge between the case head and the shell holder. Some shell holders will take up to a 5 thou feeler gauge.

You could try colouring the cases with a sharpie pen as a means to identifying the contact point(s) where it rubs off that is giving the "feel" when chambering.

Go the body die after neck sizing. Then you know your shoulder is right where you want it. To my understanding, and correct me if im wrong but that combo does constitute full length sizing? Just in two half operations?

Works perfect for me. Using the forster seater die my loads are still really low runout after 3 cycles on the norma brass.