Do you need a fancy machine to anneal?

Weather has been not good for much the last couple days so I spent most of my time reloading.
I biffed all my flash Lapua brass a while ago and started mucking around with cheap Rem brass. For some reason everything improved markedly.

I have around 50 cases Rem brass that have 2 firings.
I normally sent my brass to a mate to get annealed but after reading some articles on the benefit of annealing after every firing I thought there may be some merit to it.
Being a gear freak I was fully intending to buy a flash machine to achieve this.
With the weather being as it was, I had to occupy myself somehow so I did some experimenting.
I prepped 10 cases and got out the old propane torch.
Secured my cases in my battery drill with a Sinclair case holder.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...78145fc97e.jpg
Held the case neck with the drill full noise at the tip of the inner blue flame for 7 seconds as steady as possible.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...55f5953db4.jpg
And dropped it into an ice cream container full of water.

Dried them out. Necksized and loaded them up.
While seating the projectiles I normally use graphite powder. I still used it but noted how consistent, seating felt thru my press despite it.
I went out and shot some groups and tested velocity. Results were good and I repeated the process a couple times.

The following results are from the 6th firing of the tested cases and 3 times annealed in the most scientific fashion😆

A combination of things could be at play regarding accuracy of the rifle but I normally could group 5 rnds around .8"
ES was usually between 10 - 20 fps but most of the variation was evident on the 4th and 5th shots.
My new barrel could have also settled a little as it has fired 136 rnds.
Barrel has not been cleaned for 20+ rounds and projectiles are HBN coated.

I normally only fire 3 rnd groups to test zero and accuracy as it is hunting rifle not a target rifle, besides shooting paper bores the hell out of me all be it necessary.

ES was pretty good. I took the pic after deleting everything on my chrony by accident. The first 2 shots were 2974 and 2980.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...68871ec223.jpg

Group was shot at 109 yrds. MPI needs to be at 1.4" for 200yrd zero.
Bottom hole has 2 in it.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...2fcf0dfb5c.jpg

Back of box sort of shows the key holed shot.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...ea96a49378.jpg

Early days yet but I think I will hold of on a flash annealing machine.

With the weather mending, my son will hopefully put one of my flash harry bullets into a Haast spiker in the next couple days.

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Another really good post R93 thanks for that:)


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What made you do 7 seconds? Was that when the colour looked right?

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Originally Posted by Gibo

What made you do 7 seconds? Was that when the colour looked right?

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It was the colour and recommended by some other backyard nutter on an American shooting site😆
As I said, it is early days and not really scientific but has worked so far.
Brass is not to soft so I am happy for now.
I would get between 8-10 loads out of my brass with the same load only annealing twice at the most.
Will see if it I can improve on it, but as long as it remains accurate I am happy.
After all the benefits of loads like these are only seen at extended ranges.

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Originally Posted by BRADS

Another really good post R93 thanks for that:)


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Cheers mate. Pretty boring but until the weather improves so am I😆

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Originally Posted by R93

It was the colour and recommended by some other backyard nutter on an American shooting site��
As I said, it is early days and not really scientific but has worked so far.
Brass is not to soft so I am happy for now.
I would get between 8-10 loads out of my brass with the same load only annealing twice at the most.
Will see if it I can improve on it, but as long as it remains accurate I am happy.

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Cheers. The time would be dictated by the anount of heat put out by the tourch. I have a pissy little one. May have a jam myself. Got heaps of old brass to practise on first. Thanks for the post

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Originally Posted by R93

Cheers mate. Pretty boring but until the weather improves so am I[emoji38]

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Want to swap for some 28 degree heat wave?
Assuming 260brass on the 93?


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Originally Posted by Gibo

Cheers. The time would be dictated by the anount of heat put out by the tourch. I have a pissy little one. May have a jam myself. Got heaps of old brass to practise on first. Thanks for the post

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The case neck showed a very, very dull red in the right light. Temper marks are the same colour and at the same point on new Lapua brass, so hopefully I have it right😆

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Do you size and champh etc before or after? You mentioned preping first.

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Originally Posted by BRADS

Want to swap for some 28 degree heat wave?
Assuming 260brass on the 93?


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Na!!! We had 44° days in PNG last swing.
I am happy to be in a cooler place.
Still a bit muggy despite the rain tho.

Yup .260 Rem brass. It was necked turned as well.

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I was trying to figure how to make an annealer for a while but need a very grunty transformer. The one the duleys have are farken expensive.
Did you try the Lapua .260rem brass, you were saying you had poor results with the resized .308 stuff.

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Originally Posted by Gibo

Do you size and champh etc before or after? You mentioned preping first.

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I anneal then resize Gibo.

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Originally Posted by K95

I was trying to figure how to make an annealer for a while but need a very grunty transformer. The one the duleys have are farken expensive.
Did you try the Lapua .260rem brass, you were saying you had poor results with the resized .308 stuff.

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Yeah mate, I had only Lapua brass for all my cals except .223
The Rem brass as cheap as it is just works better in my barrel for some reason.

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I put my resized cases into a 3 jaw lathe chuck turning at about 300rpm. I use a butane torch, same as you and hold until a very slight dull red colour appears on neck- shoulder. I then remove case from chuck holding with pliers and place into a steel container, but no water. Water cooling is not necessary except for production speed.
I have found that MV drops about 30-40 fps in newly annealed case necks. I figure this might be due to the softer brass exerting somewhat less neck tension, but I am not totally sure about this. (Cal 7*61 with MV around 2850+fps using 160 SMK.) Accuracy is maintained compared to non annealed brass. (All NORMA brass)

I found it essential for any kind of consistency running subsonic .308
I would just do the same as you on my portable bbq but for subsonic I would "over anneal" it so was soft as in the neck, if un annealed the low pressure would not seal the neck against the chamber and es was around a hundred Fps, annealed as close as a f1 will measure.

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Originally Posted by Woody

I put my resized cases into a 3 jaw lathe chuck turning at about 300rpm. I use a butane torch, same as you and hold until a very slight dull red colour appears on neck- shoulder. I then remove case from chuck holding with pliers and place into a steel container, but no water. Water cooling is not necessary except for production speed.
I have found that MV drops about 30-40 fps in newly annealed case necks. I figure this might be due to the softer brass exerting somewhat less neck tension, but I am not totally sure about this. (Cal 7*61 with MV around 2850+fps using 160 SMK.) Accuracy is maintained compared to non annealed brass. (All NORMA brass)

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Interesting. I do not lose any velocity unless I shoot on a cold clean barrel. POI is the same but on a cold fouled barrel I am around 10 fps off my average which is the main goal for me.

I only drop mine in water because quenching brass does not hurt it and I picked a few up to soon after annealing and got a few burnt digits.😆



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I had the same problems as the last 2 posts which so I started crimping using a Lee crimp die....problem solved!

@Kiwi Greg s machine is quick and consistent, I think if you "over anneal" then you will have less inconsistency doing it by hand but this may not be any better and maybe worse for brass life if the is the defining factor for your brass life is split necks, I have only ever binned brass for loose pockets from running too hot and even then only a few testing how long it would last (3 loads is probably not enough:D) and a few for imminent case head separation in 303 that was an unknown when I got it.
Most of my brass would be very lucky to see 6-7 reloads it is lost in the scrub before then.


I have never had a split neck that may be due to the chambering's I use?

made a couple of measurements today . As I said earlier, I have been resizing before annealing. I measured the inside diameter of some annealed cases and compared to non annealed resized cases. There was a measurable difference of 0.0015 to 0.002 inch in inside diameter so It would appear the annealing expands the case neck a little during the heating, but it does not necessarily shrink back to original size when cooled. Therefore I have now resized my annealed cases again as per R93 method and it would appear that resizing after annealing would give more consistent dimensional consistency.

Look at this for background dinfo. Alternatively use a candle and drop the case when it gets too hot.:P

The Science Behind Annealing Brass Cases

This graph from TeReis link shows what I was trying to explain earlier with my over annealing by hand comment.

Attachment 32329

As you can see if you are heating by hand and you are only just getting into the annealing range it is possible and probable you will have a lot of variation in hardness and hence neck tension compared to "over annealing" where a large temperature range will only result in a small difference in hardness.

However this range can produce brass that is to soft to form in some calibers/dies 303 for example will collapse its rounded shoulder FLing if heated into this range and I don't doubt would cause the same issues trying to form some wildcats brass.

Get some 750 Tempilaq or the crayons that are used for welding.
Has to be on the neck and out of the flame to get a True reading
Brass will start to change its grain at about 450 from memory and anneal well at 650 BUT in needs to be held for some time and that heat radiates down the case obviously.
IMO the temp is 650F, and the graph above shows that near enough the point, going to 750 briefly speeds the process without heatsoak.
If the case is dull and not shiny after your are finished - too much.
If you can squash the neck by hand then too much.
The beauty of machine setups is that once you hit the magic setup, it's repeatable.
I've never had much luck by hand and have enough brass that wearing it out isn't really a concern right now.
Moulten lead is apparently the way to go by hand.
Dip the neck in until you can't hold the base in your bare fingers and dunk in water. Fingers have a pretty good and narrow temp range :)
Others say to not quench the hot brass and let it air cool.. Depends on your brand of snake oil you drink I spose?

Annealing guide? Look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiIrLvAUh6o

All good. I think resizing after annealing is wise though; -- or both before and after if excess brass softness in a concern.

This
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z0TlctbLT3w

Attachment 34244

I decided to have a crack at one of the annealers off youtube. Almost ready for a trial run

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Originally Posted by Dead is better

Attachment 34244

I decided to have a crack at one of the annealers off youtube. Almost ready for a trial run

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That looks very dairy farmer but lets face it we are not launching a space shuttle to start human civilisation on another planet, looks like it will do the job asked of it and I look forward to seeing it in use.

Haha yep it is made out of junk lol. I paid $4 per electric motor off eBay. You need worm gear ones that do roughly 8rpm. The dude at jaycar sold me a couple of voltage adjusters for about $5. To be honest the only expensive item was the torch which cost $45 at bunnings but that's for the head and blue bottle. The rest is old fire alarm index perspex and fence pailings. Oh yeah and an old paint tin. I call this the hobo model!

I was going to try and make one of these but so far its in the "round tuit" dept
http://youtu.be/0-C-i0Kr2jU

for anyone looking for a cheap shell holder to put into a drill, just use a suitable sized socket.
you can tip the heated brass into a bucket of water to quench with out having to touch.
greg

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Originally Posted by greghud

for anyone looking for a cheap shell holder to put into a drill, just use a suitable sized socket.
you can tip the heated brass into a bucket of water to quench with out having to touch.
greg

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Quite a few people say to quench. Doesn't this snap the brass back into a stressed state (ie undoing the good work you just did in annealing it)?

I see there are a few threads on this. Wondering I'f it's worth doing up some cad plans for a laugh once I get mine working. I lucked onto the best ramp height when I tacked it together initially. Now the bloody thing is jamming 'cause the brass is entering the tin can too high. Gotta say it's a fun project for somebody who does zero DIY most of the time.

The only reason to quench is if your heat source is that pathetic it takes so long to get the neck and shoulder up to temp it is heating the case way back into the body or web, you definitely DO NOT want to be annealing the web or base.

So if I want to forgo the torch method and just dunk the case in molten lead just past the shoulder I should be ok? Three seconds dunk and drop it in the pile and onto the next case sort of thing? Or hoooold until I can hold anymore? I suppose it depends in what temp the liquid lead is sitting at..

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Originally Posted by Tommy

So if I want to forgo the torch method and just dunk the case in molten lead just past the shoulder I should be ok? Three seconds dunk and drop it in the pile and onto the next case sort of thing? Or hoooold until I can hold anymore? I suppose it depends in what temp the liquid lead is sitting at..

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While I have not tried that method personally it has its merits and draw backs.

Primer in, the air heating inside the case will push the moulton lead out as pressure rises keeping hopefully the inside of the case free of lead.
Primer out consistent conduction of heat from both the in and out but may have leading issues inside the case.

I think it was this thread where a graph was posted in a link? that shows what I have been saying, if ad hock annealing your are better to over do than under do for consistency, this degree of softness may be to soft for your chambering's case or may be fine, if over annealing (or probably more correctly fully annealing as opposed to partly annealing) is to soft for your chambering to size etc, then you really need a machine to controll the amount consistently or you are doing more harm than good unless your only goal is case life with no regard for accuracy.

Could get a bunch of older cases and try different dip times ( one elephant two elephant method) then do a hardness check. Oh and a before check too. Brass being similar enough, just use some of the cheapie federal stuff. What would be the appropriate hardness test? Knock up a hillbilly Rockwell setup or something perhaps?

Bite the neck, you will soon tell the difference between annealed and fully work hardened, its to soft when it collapses in your die and its too hot when it looses all shine.

Nice, thanks very much. If my missus catches me biting a case I'm going to drool and groan with pleasure for a laugh

The important thing to remember is that the important thing is they are all the same, if your method is at all variable annealing at a high temperature will remove most variation in hardness and therefore neck tension.
If annealing at a high temperature makes the brass too soft for your application then really to have any sort of consistency you have to use a machine of some sort as a small temp differential is a large hardness differential.

http:// First Draft: http://youtu.be/wMAfTUu0nX4

Ugly as sin but I had to slap things on to stop brass flying off. It works ok but there are a few mods I want to try.