Thread: Fireforming case with cleaning patches and pistol powder

Has anyone tried fireforming cases with cleaning cloths/patches and pistol powder. I think i read it from nz hunter. Wondering what size of the patch and amount of power will achieve best results?

what is it you are trying to do ? expanding virgin brass to fit your chamber, or converting brass from one caliber to another ?

Yeah hundreds of times but it is not as good as hydraulic dies or just fire forming.
Maybe I was getting it wrong but I never achieved a perfect case with a patch or other type of filler.
Just used an M16 patch the little 1x1 square ones in front of AS30 or similar.
I also noticed real accuracy didn't show till the 3rd firing but it was good enough for hunting.
Got a hydraulic die thru a purchace of another rifle and it is easier and shoots well from the get go. All the money you will waste on components and time the hydraulic system pays for itself in my opinion with better results.

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Thanks guys, not sure why my initial reply didn't show up.
Most of my fireforming is just get new brasses (sometime necked down/up) to fit the chamber, before the load development starts. So using bullet/powder plus 50k drive sounds more and more expensive now. I do have rifle which need fireforming a parent case (30-30) to a wildcat case (7-30). My guess for latter more powder/larger patch are required?
I read in State they use cream of wheat method, but I think the cleaning patch sound less messy, and easy to get hold of for us.

Thanks

Originally Posted by R93

Yeah hundreds of times but it is not as good as hydraulic dies or just fire forming.
Maybe I was getting it wrong but I never achieved a perfect case with a patch or other type of filler.
Just used an M16 patch the little 1x1 square ones in front of AS30 or similar.
I also noticed real accuracy didn't show till the 3rd firing but it was good enough for hunting.
Got a hydraulic die thru a purchace of another rifle and it is easier and shoots well from the get go. All the money you will waste on components and time the hydraulic system pays for itself in my opinion with better results.

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Thanks R93. yeah I read similar reports with cream of wheat method. Guess there isn't just enough pressure from those methods. Will look into hydraulic die thingy...

If you want good conformity of the brass to your chamber, you really want to use a projectile and get it jammed into the lands, so that the case base is tight against the bolt face. That way you get full expansion, crisp edges etc.

Make sure you are sitting down when you look at prices of hydraulic forming setups

I've used the cream of wheat method and a few others but I found just using a standard load the best they still shoot accurate and are good for steel shoots or hunting.

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Originally Posted by hey

Thanks R93. yeah I read similar reports with cream of wheat method. Guess there isn't just enough pressure from those methods. Will look into hydraulic die thingy...

The hydraulic die is almost just as time consuming and a bit messy with water everywhere and you need to dry the cases in an oven or I use my dehydrator after forming. And to be fair I still don't get a perfect case but after resizing I get an accurate load from the get go and it is perfectly formed after the first time I fire it anyway.
I run 2 Ackleys and they both shoot better than I can with hydraulically formed brass. Other methods worked but it took a few loads to get them where I wanted them which was time and money in components. Was fun learning it all tho.

Forgot to mention that the hydraulic formed brass also showed better results on the radar with ES and velocity compared to other methods including fire forming with projectiles.
My barrels are a bit finicky and didn't shoot well with the projectiles I tried using jammed into lands. The same projectiles shot really well once seated correctly in a formed case.


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Thanks everyone! sounds I better stick to my usually fireforming routine. A quick tip from Mr MAX (our local gunsmith), if you neckturn the brass, the quicker you fireform it the longer brass will last
efb, the price for hydraulic die isn't too bad. no worse than those overrated redding competition dies, https://www.hornady.com/reloading/dies/custom-dies#!/ . But I guess if you want the ultimate accuracy you might want provide them with your reamer...

hot barrels!

I’ve had really good success forming, for example, 30 Gibbs from either 270 or 30-06 brass using something like AR2205, oatbran as a filler and then stabbing the neck into a candle and breaking it off so you end up with a short wax ‘projectile’ (technique originally taught to me by the late Robbie Tiffen).

Two tips:

- if moving the shoulder forward (as per 30 Gibbs) neck up to something bigger and then down again leaving the false/partial (which will become the actual) shoulder a firm fit in the chamber;

- keep increasing your powder (I used about 18 grains of AR2205 in forming 30 Gibbs) until you get a good full form. Weak forming loads means powder will come back behind the neck/shoulder and present issues or you will have rounded shoulders etc.

Start very low with initial powder weights. If you don’t get a full form first time simply try again or your final loads with an actual projectile will soon sort things.

And having said all that, shouldn’t 7/30 just be a straight neck down of 30/30 brass in a FL die with no fire forming required- and I doubt neckturning unless you have a very tight chamber.

Originally Posted by Mauser308

Ha, those overrated redding dies have been the easiest to set up for the best results from anything I've tried. They aren't magic but easy to use they sure are... In comparison the Hornady produce good concentric ammo, no issues apart from the horse power required on the press arm to drive them - insane. By comparison the redding dies are fingertip to achieve the same job, and that's brand new cleaned and tuned dies.

lol, not sure it is the problem with hornady seating die. sounds very much like neck tension issue you got there Mauser308. Let me guess: Did you use those overrated reddings' competition deck sizing die for neck resizing? worse still, did you use the neck die with those overpriced-for-nothing titanium nitride bushing? where a single bushing costs the same amount as Lee's collect die, the best neck die available. I'll suggest you give the collect die a try and your seating problem will magically go away!

enjoy the weekend people

Originally Posted by huntsika

I’ve had really good success forming, for example, 30 Gibbs from either 270 or 30-06 brass using something like AR2205, oatbran as a filler and then stabbing the neck into a candle and breaking it off so you end up with a short wax ‘projectile’ (technique originally taught to me by the late Robbie Tiffen).

Two tips:

- if moving the shoulder forward (as per 30 Gibbs) neck up to something bigger and then down again leaving the false/partial (which will become the actual) shoulder a firm fit in the chamber;

- keep increasing your powder (I used about 18 grains of AR2205 in forming 30 Gibbs) until you get a good full form. Weak forming loads means powder will come back behind the neck/shoulder and present issues or you will have rounded shoulders etc.

Start very low with initial powder weights. If you don’t get a full form first time simply try again or your final loads with an actual projectile will soon sort things.

And having said all that, shouldn’t 7/30 just be a straight neck down of 30/30 brass in a FL die with no fire forming required- and I doubt neckturning unless you have a very tight chamber.

Thanks Huntsika! much appreciated of you insight, I'll give it a go. The 7/30 is kinda improved version of 30-30, has a shorter neck so you will need create a false shoulder first, very much like your 30 Gibbs.

Ive found the best method for all my wildcats/Ackley's etc is a full to the brim case of Trailboss then stab it into a candle to seal with a plug of wax. Most cases will form fully this way and its cheaper than fireforming with bullets.
Some of the thicker brass with 40 deg shoulders dont get supper sharp shoulders but they blow forward enough to head space properly for the first proper load which sharpens them up.

I tried all sorts of methods and the best for going from you 30 cal down to 7mm is just necking down the case but not all the way down to the shoulder / neck junction. If a donut ring is left at the base of the neck the case will be tightly held between the bolt face and donut. Just screw the die down a little at a time until the right point is found where cases chamber with a little bit of resistance on the bolt. Remember, with a push feed action the plunger ejector is pushing the case hard forward. If it is short in the chamber most of the stretch will occur at the web and can mean a case head separation - I know this from personal experience
So just load a normal (not hot) load in the trimmed and neck sized cases and shoot. In my 2506 AI a forming load is doing 3000 fps and a full power load is at 3250 so using the forming loads for hunting I dont see a difference

Excellent stuff, thanks Wingman! you have some interesting cartridges there. Is the last one 6mm dasher?