Handloading for Placid and Challenging Cartridges

Greetings All,
Was having a bit of a search on the interweb today for load data for the 129 grain LRAB in the 6.5-06 that I will be developing a load shortly. Found plenty of data, much of it conflicting. I have been here before. It struck me that most cartridges can be divided into two main groups. Those that are placid to load for and those that are challenging.

Placid Cartridges.
These are mostly cartridges that have been developed by the industry for sporting or military use. The best examples in my cupboard are the .223 and the .308. There are many others. Load data is plentiful and broadly similar. Fancy powders are not needed to get decent performance, chamber tolerances are tight and they are easy to load for. Hence my tag of "Placid Cartridges".

Challenging Cartridges.
These have usually but not always developed outside the US of A and can be old military or sporting rounds. Some started life as a wildcat and some still are. As well as the 6.5-06 mentioned above examples include most obsolete military cartridges such as 6.5x55, 8x57, .303 and others. Load data is scarce and often conflicting. Wide ranges of loads for the same projectiles are often listed and chamber tolerances can be loose and the dies mis matched. These cartridges can be hard work.

I have examples of both but it is the later type that gives the most joy to load for.

How about you?

Regards Grandpamac.

YEAH NAH....pretty much anything I want to load for I can find at least 3 different sources of information with the powder and projectile WEIGHT Im wanting... the most obscure was the 7.63x39mm but only because I wanted to try a different powder that I knew should work LILGUN... wit ha trusted mate doing the computer wizadry thing..cant think of programme name.... went ahead and had great results. quickload...thats the hua.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings All,
Was having a bit of a search on the interweb today for load data for the 129 grain LRAB in the 6.5-06 that I will be developing a load shortly. Found plenty of data, much of it conflicting. I have been here before. It struck me that most cartridges can be divided into two main groups. Those that are placid to load for and those that are challenging.

Placid Cartridges.
These are mostly cartridges that have been developed by the industry for sporting or military use. The best examples in my cupboard are the .223 and the .308. There are many others. Load data is plentiful and broadly similar. Fancy powders are not needed to get decent performance, chamber tolerances are tight and they are easy to load for. Hence my tag of "Placid Cartridges".

Challenging Cartridges.
These have usually but not always developed outside the US of A and can be old military or sporting rounds. Some started life as a wildcat and some still are. As well as the 6.5-06 mentioned above examples include most obsolete military cartridges such as 6.5x55, 8x57, .303 and others. Load data is scarce and often conflicting. Wide ranges of loads for the same projectiles are often listed and chamber tolerances can be loose and the dies mis matched. These cartridges can be hard work.

I have examples of both but it is the later type that gives the most joy to load for.

How about you?

Regards Grandpamac.

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Hi there Gramps,

I guess all my calibres are placid by your definition. But I include 6.5x55 Swede and 303B in that bucket. Curious as to why you consider them challenging? The only load data issue I have had with 303B is the same as for 30-30 i.e. heavy for calibre projectiles. Published data for 30-30 tends to stop at 170gn, with one instance of 173gn. For 303B it tends to be a180gn stop. For heavier load data one has to go to published writers such as old magazine articles or, God help us, firum threads. For a 215gn load for 303B it took me 2 years to dig out Ken Waters Pet Load for the 215gn Woodleigh bullet much favored in Canada. 46gn of RL19. Plenty of locals scoffed at RL19 in the venerable 303B but I tried it and it likes it - for that weight bullet. So for me its more the difficulty of finding reliable load data outside common industry parameters for a given calibre. I guess I'm just not that involved with the esoteric calibres - yet.

Happy hols.

@grandpamac Like your way of thinking as to me reloading some times becomes more fun than the shooting.
Sometime ago I traded into 1.5 KGs of trail boss then when trailboss was discontinued I went out and bought another 1.5 KGs so I made it a mission to see how many guns I could use it in.
The list at the moment is 357 Mag and Max - .303 - 30/30 - 45/70 -32/20 - 375BB - 44/40 - 38/40 - 7.5x55 - 8x56MS - 8x56 KROP. - 22 hornet - 45ACP - 577/450.
Still to go 577 Snider and 50 BMG and maybe a couple more I have forgotten.
Keep up the good work and Merry Xmas.

trail boss is one of the easiest to find a load for because there is a formular to use.... or just go one sized LEE spoon smaller than would do for smokeless...it sure is fun stuff to use.

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Hi there Gramps,

I guess all my calibres are placid by your definition. But I include 6.5x55 Swede and 303B in that bucket. Curious as to why you consider them challenging? The only load data issue I have had with 303B is the same as for 30-30 i.e. heavy for calibre projectiles. Published data for 30-30 tends to stop at 170gn, with one instance of 173gn. For 303B it tends to be a180gn stop. For heavier load data one has to go to published writers such as old magazine articles or, God help us, firum threads. For a 215gn load for 303B it took me 2 years to dig out Ken Waters Pet Load for the 215gn Woodleigh bullet much favored in Canada. 46gn of RL19. Plenty of locals scoffed at RL19 in the venerable 303B but I tried it and it likes it - for that weight bullet. So for me its more the difficulty of finding reliable load data outside common industry parameters for a given calibre. I guess I'm just not that involved with the esoteric calibres - yet.

Happy hols.

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Greetings @Jhon,
I have found that the data for the 6.5x55 varies widely and is mostly low pressure. Data for AR2209 (H4350) is mostly for the older and slower version from pre 2000. I calculated the velocity I should get at modern pressures based on the higher pressure loads for the .260R and 6.5 Creedmoor and the extra useable capacity of the 6.5x55 case and worked up to that. I don't have much faith in "pressure signs" or computer based systems like quick load, especially in 6.5mm cartridges. US dies for the 6.5x55 are very tight, setting the shoulder back 0.012" or more depending on the actual chamber. This all has to be worked in to handloading for the cartridge. The .303 British load data varies widely possibly due to throat erosion in some rifles and case sizing needs a lot of thought to keep case life reasonable. In the late 1970's I swore off ever loading the .303 again and sold two and re barrelled a Martini to .30-40 Krag. Now they are two more in the safe which get light loads in neck sized cases which I enjoy pottering with. I did rather like the last word in the body of your post "yet".
GPM.

I guess the 30 06 would be in you list of Placid as there is Data everywhere and alot align
My challenging ones would be a couple of 6.5x55's and a 9.3 x62, the good thing about my x55's is they are modern actions so I don't have the concern some one who is loading for say a 94 might have.
What about the 30 30, where would you put that
I don't load for mine and I guess I never will
haven't fired it much but it seems to be minute of large fist at 100 metres with factory ammo and smallish rock at 150 so I'm thinking this will do me.

I found the 9.3 real easy to load accurately for .

My Finn however initially wouldn't accept anything I tried in 2209 which really got up my nose as I tried a couple of my reject loads in my mates new T3 Tikka and they were mint.

Got it sorted and it shoots just fine but not as easily done as the Tikka, I remember posting about it years ago in the "things you really hate" thread.

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Originally Posted by jakewire

I guess the 30 06 would be in you list of Placid as there is Data everywhere and alot align
My challenging ones would be a couple of 6.5x55's and a 9.3 x62, the good thing about my x55's is they are modern actions so I don't have the concern some one who is loading for say a 94 might have.
What about the 30 30, where would you put that
I don't load for mine and I guess I never will
haven't fired it much but it seems to be minute of large fist at 100 metres with factory ammo and smallish rock at 150 so I'm thinking this will do me.

I found the 9.3 real easy to load accurately for .

My Finn however initially wouldn't accept anything I tried in 2209 which really got up my nose as I tried a couple of my reject loads in my mates new T3 Tikka and they were mint.

Got it sorted and it shoots just fine but not as easily done as the Tikka, I remember posting about it years ago in the "things you really hate" thread.

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I think that the .30-30 fits in the placid group. Mostly chambered in lever actions and there is good data for that. I eventually used AR2209 with the Hodgdon max of 45.5 grains behind the 129 grain SST. With current powder this gives a little over 2,800 fps compared for about 2,700 fps. As I said in an earlier post current AR2209 is a lot faster. Max loads in data that I have run from 43.5 to 48 grains, part of the problem.
GPM.
PS I will probably be out in my loading area on Christmas day at some time.

Assume when you are talking 2209 your meaning the x55 not the 30 30.
I use 48Gr flat behind the 120gr Nosler ands 123gr Amax, safe in mine, pretty flat and Accurate.
The 140 Amax I'm in N560 , have a reasonable amount left. Rezeroed this load last weekend as running out of Nosler. Average 3 shots after zeroing with V3 2785fps Es 18

Ok Muzza I'll bite
8mm 06 ok, run of the mill[ almost]
219 Donaldson Wasp?
Please explain
I could google and quote or paste but then that would seem I know something about it which,
I don't.

Which 9.3 jakewire
I'm reloading for 2 a little 1 and 1 bigger

X 62 @Boxton
I'm using a case full of 2209 but most tell me 2208 is the go.

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Originally Posted by jakewire

Assume when you are talking 2209 your meaning the x55 not the 30 30.
I use 48Gr flat behind the 120gr Nosler ands 123gr Amax, safe in mine, pretty flat and Accurate.
The 140 Amax I'm in N560 , have a reasonable amount left. Rezeroed this load last weekend as running out of Nosler. Average 3 shots after zeroing with V3 2785fps Es 18

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Yes the AR2209 load was for the 6.5x55, brain got ahead of the typing.
GPM.

The only headache cartridge I've had the "pleasure" of loading for is the Hornet. Part of the issue was the POS Ruger it was being shot it in but even then, the need to shag about with multiple projectiles, loads and crimping was something you can do without. Actually, that brings me to the .44-40: super thin brass and crimping is an unforgiving combo. Very easy to kill those cases..

The process of working out a load seems to be pretty much the same for every cartridge. Delving into wildcats and ackley improved cartridges adds a bit of entertainment, as it adds in forming or fireforming the brass to the process.

I've certainly had rifles that have been challenging but not really cartridges. Little idiosyncrasies like bedding issues, barrels that aren't free floated, nasty triggers, bad crowns... things that unless you catch will have you going around in circles and none of which have anything to do with the cartridge.

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Originally Posted by muzza

Just finding reliable information with current componants is the chore with calibres that are regarded as obsolete. The Donaldson Wasp was the King of benchrest shooting for many years until the .222 Rem came along.

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@muzza have you looked at the Edition VI of the Sierra reloading manual? In the rear of the manual there is a section called Rifle Legacy Reloading Date which includes data for the 219 Donaldson Wasp.

by far the easiest has been both the 44 magnum and the 45/70 the 45/70 in particular is a doddle to load for...Ive settled on 45grns of 2208 behind a 405 grn cast and 45 grns of 2219 behind the 330 cast...just cause its an easy number that is top of the bottom,bottom of the middle tiers . black powder is easier still,stuff it in till no more fits..well actuall I weigh it out first,but thats pretty much how it works.

I have
6br ai
6.5-06 (have some 147 eldms and n560 I want to try as a combo)
284 win
7mm rem mag

Intend to add 223 and 6.5prc to the lineup, seems I'm mostly in the latter category

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Originally Posted by distant stalker

I have
6br ai
6.5-06 (have some 147 eldms and n560 I want to try as a combo)
284 win
7mm rem mag

Intend to add 223 and 6.5prc to the lineup, seems I'm mostly in the latter category

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Greetings,
Plenty of challenges in the first four. I have only loaded the 6.5-06. Your intended additions should be much more placid.
Regards Grandpamac.

I just had a succes and a failure with my Marlin 30-30 on Christmas eve. The success was finding a load for 180gn S&W soft points I first mentioned in a post some months ago. There being no current published data from powder manufacturers in particular I searched out earlier magazine writers and current forums. I settled for a modest load of 30gn of IMR 3O31and produced groups like this at just under 50m from a table fore-wood rest
Attachment 212953

Then I shot some incremental loads with Walker 152gn Cast Gas Checked HP. No good news there other than velocity seemed to improve the poor groups I was getting. These were loaded with Nobel 78 Shotgun Powder, a substitute for Red Dot which has worked very well for me elsewhere. Dinner plate at 47m was about as good as it got
Between 1400 and 1600fps. Then at the end I fished out a bag with half a doz spire point factory rounds that had come to me intended for a bolt action, which I had pulled and re-seated with the Walkers with the original powder charge - whatever that was. These did better but not a lot, averaging close to 2200fps. Five of the shots would have taken meat home, the 6th a maybe.

Attachment 212954

Finally, done with the 30-30 for the nonce, I loaded the Rossi 44mag with more Walkers- this time 240gn GC FP over 19.8gn Belmont Magnum Pistol (WC296). Pretty happy with this result.

Attachment 212955

So a pleasant few hours out in the hills and some success. 13gn of Pistol/Shotgun powder is max for me in the 30cal Rifle cartridges so will be going to something different to nail down a tighter group. A max load of AR2205 should deliver around 1800fps. As would 2207. Either AR2206H or AR2208 would bring velocity up into early 2000fps well under max loads. But would love to hear what is giving others success with this cast bullet in the Marlin 30-30 - I know the projectile has a bit of popularity out there.

Such nice props to have in holiday time.

P.S. The Marlin has a Vortex Red Dot on it, the Rossi a Vortex Scout Scope

i was very lucky with the 416 Remmy. First lot of handloaded cartridges done by a reloading guy in CHCH (barnes x points 340gr) with a fireforming load would do under MOA at a hundy for 3 shots.
Repeatable.
Then I did my own with 340 woodleighs and 2206. Both myself and my friend trying it out with the second load tried got similar groupings of approx 17mm x14mm at 40 yards out the back of his place. Picked a starting load 2.5 grains back from the max load. This was when the ADI book only had a max load from the picture I took of the page.
Went a whole grain higher just because, and that was the one with the groups just mentioned.
Never sighted it in properly for those as i still had a handful of the monos to use. These chronographed over 2700fps which was the book velocity for a standard load. so i left it
Fast forward years later and I let an acquaintance have a crack. Using my projectiles and his 2206. He used a starting load similar to mine and was getting 2500fps and change and about MOA at a hundy.
I do have some factory stuff to try for shitz and gigs but i do want to load up some more of the woodleighs.
Even though it does shoot well with the 340 cup and core, it also did well with a slower load (i did have the chance to crony the last few i had recently but only thought of it after the fact), and they would be longer so could be getting close to the traditional 400gr projectiles for them and in reality, the twist should be right for that as that is benchmark projectile for them.
The manual does suggest that you could get 2900fps out of a 300gr pill. That is fair stonking.

The most 'out there' cal I'm loading for is an old 43cal ww1 rifle. Altering, sizing and fireforming 45-70 brass for it which isn't pretty tbf. But the old girl is shooting again so there's life in her yet

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Originally Posted by T.FOYE

The most 'out there' cal I'm loading for is an old 43cal ww1 rifle. Altering, sizing and fireforming 45-70 brass for it which isn't pretty tbf. But the old girl is shooting again so there's life in her yet

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That would have been an old cartridge in WW1. More details please.
GPM.

I thought .257 Roberts would be a doddle but it turned into a bit of a challenge. Wasnt helped by the OAL of the Kimber Hunter mag which a clever (Jaco) gunsmith sorted for me.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

I thought .257 Roberts would be a doddle but it turned into a bit of a challenge. Wasn't helped by the OAL of the Kimber Hunter mag which a clever (Jaco) gunsmith sorted for me.

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Another ex wildcat that suffered for it's early life. There have been few new .25 calibre cartridges in recent years and there may not be many in the future, unfortunately.
GPM.