Hang and missfires in Large ish Cases useing small rifle primers

So as some of you know im getting a 6.5 creedmoor soon probably be back from the gunsmith next week
And have decided i go with small primer brass for the Benefit it supposably gives when running warmer loads

Ive been watching quite a bit of this guy “johnny’s reloading bench” on YouTube
As he has tested a bunch of bullets with a bunch of powders in the 6.5 creedmoor
I know I know we can’t take that as gospel but I still like to see what results others have had

During his video on the 140gn hpbt hornaday match useing vit n550
He was useing cci 450 sr magnum primers
He had a few hangfires and two rounds missfired completely

So he started a 4 video Series called “investigating hang fires in the 6.5 creedmoor” the videos are long winded
But due to my interest in something that could affect me with my new rifle and brass choice I decided to watch them

So video 1 he stripped down the missfired rounds the primer had definitely gone off and the powder was scorched it just didn’t ignite so he was testing a bunch of Different primers
Same powder n550
All the primers he tested bar 2 cci 41 and remington 7-1/2 which worked well
All the others ether had hang fires/ missfires

Video 2 he wondered if cold weather had something to do with it he’s shooting in snow
So to see if the issue got worse
So he loaded up 5 rounds with each primer and put the rounds in the Freezer over night and shot them without letting them warm up the problem did get worse but not overly so

Video 3 he tested 10 Different powders as he thought that it might just be n550 was hard to Ignite
For this test he used the worst primer from his testing and the Minimum book load for each powder
He found that powder with poor case fill like the n550 had the issues and the ones that had good case full had less issues

Video 4 he thought it could be more to do with case fill than the primer
So he loaded exactly the same as video 3 Except he used maximum book charges
The problem improved Significantly he still had a couple of issues with powder that was low case full even at max charge
But powder with good case full were Flawless

What ive learnt
Pick a good hot primer and pick a powder with good case full and those 2 combined I should not have any issues

What’s your take on all this?

Yep you've come to the same conclusions I did.

If you look back a few weeks I posted about reduced loads in my Creedmoor with AR2206. Have several hangfires and one misfire with cases that didn't have enough powder in them to be reliable.

Normal load of 41.5 grains 2209 with 140 ELD-M are 100% re liable.

To keep it in perspective I figure if you're going to spend time in the Southern Alps in winter then it might be judicious to use Norma or Hornady brass with large rifle primers for your hunting loads.

The Creedmoor case is probably right on the edge of capacity for a small primer to spark up effectively

The 308 case is bigger by around three grains of water but the powder used is faster burning so easier to ignite.

Weak primers, slow powders, lower percentage case fill & cold weather can lead to hang fires

Yeah im thinking that with a hot primer a good case full powder combination with warmer nz weather
I don’t hunt in snow I should be good
The powder powders i plan to try have very good case fill infact one is compressed max charge re26
Online people have been getting some honking speed with re26 like 2850+ with a 140 from a 22 inch tube
Hopefully I can sort something like that out

I have had the odd hang fire (more of a delayed ignition) with federal primers in 6.5CM Lapua cases. Although "hotter" they are softer in the cup, I put it down to overpressuring the primer when seating. So now I take it a lot slower on the priming time.

Loaded about 2K+ rounds of 6.5CM 99% with Hornady large rifle primer without ANY hang fires or other problem, since February i went to Lapua SRP and load almost the same load from my Hornady brass in the Lapua brass with the exactly same velocities results with the exception of smaller SD and ES. I am a subscriber of "Johnny's Reloading Bench" channel and follow his videos from the 223/5.56 to his 30-06, "I" think few of the previous posts are spot on, the correct combo (powder, primer, brass, etc) will make things a lot easier and reliable.

My load with Hornady brass was Federal 210 match and ADI 2209 pushing the Hornady 140GR ELD-M, Lapua brass, Federal 205 match AR, ADI2209 powder again.

Cheers.

Mac

I'm using Hornady brass, 140gr Interlocks, 41.6 of 2209, 210M's and never had an issue.

What do you guys do when you get a hang -fire?.
As in do you have a set time to wait before opening the bolt ?
I guess a miss-fire is a hang fire that didn't go off with primer punched ?.
Ive got many years of shooting behind me and struggle to think of any miss-fires or hang-fires. But then I used factory loads and only in the last few years have I reloaded ,for the .308.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rambo-6mmrem

Yeah im thinking that with a hot primer a good case full powder combination with warmer nz weather
I don’t hunt in snow I should be good
The powder powders i plan to try have very good case fill infact one is compressed max charge re26
Online people have been getting some honking speed with re26 like 2850+ with a 140 from a 22 inch tube
Hopefully I can sort something like that out

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That Re26 sure does look intriguing! Almost seems too good to be true... I hope we don't blow our face off :)

I wondered the same thing regarding blowing my face off, i couldn't get the max berger charge of re26 in the case. Running the 135 classic hunter at 2850 from a 22in barrel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghosts

What do you guys do when you get a hang -fire?.
As in do you have a set time to wait before opening the bolt ?
I guess a miss-fire is a hang fire that didn't go off with primer punched ?.
Ive got many years of shooting behind me and struggle to think of any miss-fires or hang-fires. But then I used factory loads and only in the last few years have I reloaded ,for the .308.

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Never had one but this is what I would do,

. Point the muzzle toward the ground in the first instance,
. Wait 30 sec +- and if nothing happens,
. Check surrounding area and lift muzzle into the air in a safe direction (toward the sea as your on the island) as the hot spot (if any) will be at the primer
. Wait another 30 sec,
. If nothing happens then cycle the bolt to remove the round.


My thoughts only

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benj

I wondered the same thing regarding blowing my face off, i couldn't get the max berger charge of re26 in the case. Running the 135 classic hunter at 2850 from a 22in barrel.

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@Benj - have you watched any Johnny's Reloading Bench videos on Youtube? They're informative and entertaining! Listening to Johnny say 'hunting' and 'bullet' makes me chuckle :)

What brass are you running the Re26 load in? How many grains did you manage to fit in?

6.5CM, Lapua SR case, CCI BR4, 98% full case of AR2209, 143gr ELD-X, 400 rounds so far, not a hint of a hang or misfire, in temps ranging from 32°C+ to a little below zero.

I also watch Johnny and concluded I would be at the low end of the hang/misfire risk if I kept to a full case of appropriate powder, and it hasn’t crossed by mind since. It being a hunting round for me I want tough brass that will last with a stoutish charge and so far the Lapua brass has given me confidence it will go the distance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelisreal

@Benj - have you watched any Johnny's Reloading Bench videos on Youtube? They're informative and entertaining! Listening to Johnny say 'hunting' and 'bullet' makes me chuckle :)

What brass are you running the Re26 load in? How many grains did you manage to fit in?

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I'm running lapua brass and 49 grains of re26. This is right to the top of the case pretty much... No I haven't watched Johnny's reloading bench I will have a look! Cheers.

This is a good link for some Lapua SR brass research, specifically its ability to handle pressure as per the SR primer design:

A Look at Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor Brass

My hang fires have been as follows

Press trigger and see firing go forward, at the same moment hear a light click ( noise of firing pin strike ) a millisecond later normal shot fired. Primers are seated in a Forster coax seater.
Havent had this issue with CCI primers which are my usuall primer prior to getting the CM.

If I was to get a failure to fire I would wait 30 seconds before opening the bolt.

Many years ago it was recognised that ball powders especially at reduced case volumes were proving difficult to ignite in certain situations. The magnum primers with their longer flame time gave more consistent ignition. Bench rest primers might be the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Many years ago it was recognised that ball powders especially at reduced case volumes were proving difficult to ignite in certain situations. The magnum primers with their longer flame time gave more consistent ignition. Bench rest primers might be the same.

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Interesting I have just gone to ball powder, how reduced were the loads you are thinking of?
I am using 41 .5 grains of 760 so although its less powder by volume than say 2209 it comes up to the bottom of the shoulder, in the case.
And measures like a dream which was a major reason for the change.

Heres the results of an OCW test done with the hang fires evident in the bottom two groups.

If its not clear enough in the pic, testing was done at 200yds

Attachment 93775

Fired about 800 rounds in Lapua 6.5 CM cases with CCI 450, mostly AR2209 but also RE17, AR 2208, 2206H and Superformance. Not one misfire and at least 500 rounds shot were reduced loads for target shooting at 100m.

Good to hear guys im getting the rifle tomorrow by the sounds of it
But it will probably be a few weeks before I have all the loading stuff for it
I’ll buy a packet or two of factory and put it through it’s paces 1st

Great topic and one very close to home with me.
I have fairly recently entered the world of 6.5 Creedmoor after 20+ years of favouring .308win.
I strayed to this fad/trendy cal with apprehension but a lot of curiosity and sat down to watch every youtube vids and read hundreds of forum posts etc

I was torn between a custom build 6.5x47 Lapua or a factory 6.5 creedmoor and was leaning the way of x47 lapua but after finding a cheap platform in Creedmoor I decided that was a better way to cut my teeth on the 6.5cal .

I eventually picked up a Remington 700 Tactical in Creedmoor and some Redding competition dies proceeded to experiment with accuracy and velocity.
Id consider myself an experienced reloader with plenty of match load seasoning but Im am almost embarrassed to say that the Creedmoor cal has challenged me and taught me more it 6 months than my 25+ years of reloading match grade ammo in any other cal.
It has been the hardest to tune load I have ever come across any has been plagued with pressure issues. I think I have tried every brass, powder projectile and primer combo out there available for this cal and very nearly threw in the towel writing it off all together as a bunch of exaggerated online hype.


That was until I tried something a little left field and hit the mother load.
I am almost afraid to mention the powder I use here for the fear it will deplete the NZ supply with its sudden spike of demand.
What I learned about this cal deserves a thread all of its own but I can proudly say I have found my Creedmoor load nirvana.

The case is nothing more than a slightly oversized Bench rest style case and that is the mind frame that got my results.
Sure it can be loaded to 2600 to 2700fps in 24"+ tubes with fair hunting accuracy using many of the easy to get powders and loading components but when I finally had the break through that combated high pressure and or the hang fires you speak of above (powder v/s primer related) I was reaching velocities over 3000fps with 139gr Lapua Scenars with perfect ignition and no high pressure signs.
I have actually cut my heavy barrel back to 20"" from 24" to get the best efficiency/accuracy node to suit this load and have now settled on a ragged hole cutter load of 136gr L Lapua Scenars running at 2910fps at are still supersonic at 1400 yards.

This cal has been an OCD adventure and a fun challenge that has had me pulling my hair out at times but looking back on it I learned so much from it that it has changed that way I look at reloading other cals.

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@Wingman, that’s not fair. Need more detail!

@Wingman what power what primer?

Like I said Ill start a new thread when I get time... it was 3 a month long session of load development that really needs proper documentation to stop newbies jumping to the conclusive loads or doing something potentially dangerous.
Creedmoor even in factory loads is a relatively high pressure cal, though it doesn't have to be to get good results.