Load Testing Analysis. What do i make of this?

Hey Team,

Have just got done shooting my first ever batch of reloads. After shooting the 4 groups I am unsure what to make of the groupings. I was unable to shoot over a chrono so cannot comment on the difference’s in velocities but was reasonably happy with my reloading. Obviously being my first time though anything could have gone wrong of course.
I was shooting off of bags so all the shots felt solid. There was slight wind but I tried to shoot in the luls. I was expecting to see more tighter groups and some more spread out. Where do I go from here? I want to be shooting towards to top end of the speed spectrum so would prefer the higher charges but seen as the 63gr group was really bad i’m not sure what to think.

Hopefully there should be 4 photos attached

Cheers, 7RMBoy

well it could be worse.......
how do you and rifle go with factory ammunition????
if you have a factory grouping of CONSISTANT half inch.......you could do a hell of a lot worse than to TRY THIS.....set your seating die using factory round,if your chosen factory round has SIMILAR type olglive...the roundy tapering bit...it will mean you have SIMILAR projectile jump to rifling.
if grouping tightens....well and awesome...tootoo slightly with seating depth...if nothing changes,and grouping still at the 1.5moa you getting now,look for another issue.
the whole reason for factory grouping is it gives you a base line to work off,if your best factory load grouping is 2 moa...your reloads are better....keep doing what you are,but look for any other possible reason.

paper manual has 162grn hdy spbt as imr4831 61.8grns MAXIMUM

Firstly, dont get hung up on velocity - its way overrated. Those groups look pretty good for a first time, and consistent. If you're keen on 63gn's, reload some more and try again cos that could easily be a wind gust, your technique or any one of a number of variables. But I'd be plenty happy with any of the first 3 as a starting point, hell I'd call it quits and just load up for 62.5gn's and have at it! 61 gn's is the listed book max, so you should consider your pressure signs when choosing your load. If you want to look at making them tighter maybe play with your seating depth with one or 2 of those loads to see if that helps. But, good start in to the deep dark hole of reloading, well done.

Attachment 152750

The ammunition i am shooting for hunting at the moment is the Norma 154gr Oryx and it shot at about 1moa when sighting in

Funny I've always set intpital seating depth using factory ammo before faffing around, I'm yet to find that seating closer to the lands etc make a blind bit of difference. Powder charge seems more influential. Maybe if I was a ftr or similar shooter but I work on "within a 4 inch circle at the maximum range I am prepared to shoot at an animal at is acceptable and all I need". For rabbits and hares however it's half that,

Or try Re25 or Ar 2217. Thede are slower burn rate powders

Bullets had a COAL of 3.350” sitting 0.016” off of the lands

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Woody

Or try Re25 or Ar 2217. Thede are slower burn rate powders

---

Want to try get the 4831 shooting well as i have a heap from when dad used to reload

great you can see point BOTH Husky and I made politely........your FIRST RELOADS are at book MAXIMUM right off the cuff
just about EVERY SINGLE bit of reloading literature ever written will spell it out in big letters
start 10% below and work up.
you know your seating depth and distance off lands...how does this compare to your ornx?????
and please be aware folks get knicker in a knot if you dont SAY WHICH 4831 you mean each n every time as the hodgdon and IMR stuff have quite different burn speeds and charge weights....in poohseventy the minimum for one is maximum for other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

great you can see point BOTH Husky and I made politely........your FIRST RELOADS are at book MAXIMUM right off the cuff
just about EVERY SINGLE bit of reloading literature ever written will spell it out in big letters
start 10% below and work up.
you know your seating depth and distance off lands...how does this compare to your ornx?????
and please be aware folks get knicker in a knot if you dont SAY WHICH 4831 you mean each n every time as the hodgdon and IMR stuff have quite different burn speeds and charge weights....in poohseventy the minimum for one is maximum for other.

---

Apologies, the powder is IMR 4831.
I dont own any comparators so I cant measure how far the Oryx sit off of the lands. The only was i know my distance from lands for the accubonds is because i found the jam length and then seated back off of that.

Yep, Nosler reload guide states 63.0 gn as max with IMR4831. Your 62.5 gn load shows promise, try 62.3 and 62.7 gns.
Also have you measured your max COL ? Ie where the ogive hits the lanz? The saami COL at 3.29 is almost certainly still quite a big jump to lanz. Seating pills longer, reducing jump may tighten up your groups.

Your brass is probably not Nosler in which case their reloading specs will not apply. At the very least, as others have recommended, drop back 10% to 57 grains and do a ladder at 0.3 grain steps up to 61 or so. This will give a better picture to assess. Use magnum primers too.

ok fair enough.....maybe TRY what I suggested.....place one of the ornx in base and put seating die in,screw stem out a fair ol way....drop ram handle to bottom and start screwing stem down watching it like a hawk...when it starts to "quiver like your old fella when pretty girl walks by"....stop screwing it down.... then try one of your reloads in dies set up as it is......it will either be shorter,longer or bang on....any which way it gives you somewhere to start...Ive loaded this way for 30 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chainsaw

Yep, Nosler reload guide states 63.0 gn as max with IMR4831. Your 62.5 gn load shows promise, try 62.3 and 62.7 gns.
Also have you measured your max COL ? Ie where the ogive hits the lanz? The saami COL at 3.29 is almost certainly still quite a big jump to lanz. Seating pills longer, reducing jump may tighten up your groups.

---

I have measured the max jam length for the accubonds, that length was 3.366” so I seated the bullets at 3.350”. .2gr jumps in powder is how you’d go from here? I’ll give that a go. Cheers!

Why did you not start with the projectile seated to manufacturers specs? They spend millions and hours working with highly sophisticated equipment
and some first time loader thinks they know better, I have been hand loading since 1969 and still start with manufacturers seating depth when trying
a new projectile, Always start with getting the powder charge sorted out first, Your loads are stringing vertical which is usually a sign of bad ignition
horizontal stringing is a bad hold, Seat the projectiles to Nosler's specs start with their start load shoot three shot groups in .5 grain steps until you find
the most accurate powder charge forget about velocity until you have the rifle grouping a 2960fps hit is better than a 3100fps miss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shooternz

Why did you not start with the projectile seated to manufacturers specs? They spend millions and hours working with highly sophisticated equipment
and some first time loader thinks they know better, I have been hand loading since 1969 and still start with manufacturers seating depth when trying
a new projectile, Always start with getting the powder charge sorted out first, Your loads are stringing vertical which is usually a sign of bad ignition
horizontal stringing is a bad hold, Seat the projectiles to Nosler's specs start with their start load shoot three shot groups in .5 grain steps until you find
the most accurate powder charge forget about velocity until you have the rifle grouping a 2960fps hit is better than a 3100fps miss.

---

That is a good point. I was under the impression that seating closer to the lands was better seen as the factory loads are set to encompass all make and models. Cheers

Greetings Again 7RMBoy,
The Nosler data is the hottest I have seen listed currently so would suggest not going above 63 grains. The data is the same as was listed in Nosler's No 1 manual from 1976 with slight changes in velocity. I suspect the loads crowd the 52,000 CUP or 60,000 PSI limit pretty hard. IMR4831 was introduced in the early 1970's, about the time that load data started to be pressure tested. All new handloaders start out infected with a degree of velocititis (a burning desire to achieve the maximum velocity possible at any cost) but most recover over time. 62.5 grains of IMR4831 interpolates to 2,990 fps. If you can chronograph that load it will give you an idea of pressure. If the velocity is close then pressure will be too.
If you are concerned over getting that last erosive foot per second I suggest a little exercise. Construct a couple of drop charts, each with the Accubond zeroed at 200 metres, but with one for 2,800 fps and the other 3,000 fps. this will show the difference between a hot load and one less so.
I also would not read too much into the accuracy of a single group for a load. You could shoot your set of loads again and get quite different results. That's just the way loads are. To me the 62.5 grain load looks promising so I would retest that one with a couple more groups before I change it much. A couple of clicks left on the scope and a few loads and you are ready for hunting. Further development can continue between hunts.
Regards Grandpamac.

Have you got a reloading manual and given it a good thorough read?

Not trying to be overly critical, but your approach seems quite cavalier and it looks like you've made a few too many assumptions along the way with your reloading.

Might just want to slow down a bit and get someone to sanity check what you're doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Again 7RMBoy,
The Nosler data is the hottest I have seen listed currently so would suggest not going above 63 grains. The data is the same as was listed in Nosler's No 1 manual from 1976 with slight changes in velocity. I suspect the loads crowd the 52,000 CUP or 60,000 PSI limit pretty hard. IMR4831 was introduced in the early 1970's, about the time that load data started to be pressure tested. All new handloaders start out infected with a degree of velocititis (a burning desire to achieve the maximum velocity possible at any cost) but most recover over time. 62.5 grains of IMR4831 interpolates to 2,990 fps. If you can chronograph that load it will give you an idea of pressure. If the velocity is close then pressure will be too.
If you are concerned over getting that last erosive foot per second I suggest a little exercise. Construct a couple of drop charts, each with the Accubond zeroed at 200 metres, but with one for 2,800 fps and the other 3,000 fps. this will show the difference between a hot load and one less so.
I also would not read too much into the accuracy of a single group for a load. You could shoot your set of loads again and get quite different results. That's just the way loads are. To me the 62.5 grain load looks promising so I would retest that one with a couple more groups before I change it much. A couple of clicks left on the scope and a few loads and you are ready for hunting. Further development can continue between hunts.
Regards Grandpamac.

---

Hey Granpamac,

Just whipped up a ballistics chart and noted that the difference isn’t that major really. There is a 6inch drop difference at 500m and roughly a 200fps and 200ftlb difference between the 2800fps and 3000fps.
To be fair the velocity doesn’t really bother me aslong as the bullets group well and will preform at distances out to the 5-600m mark. Which both of those examples would.
Thanks for the reply

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pommy

Have you got a reloading manual and given it a good thorough read?

Not trying to be overly critical, but your approach seems quite cavalier and it looks like you've made a few too many assumptions along the way with your reloading.

Might just want to slow down a bit and get someone to sanity check what you're doing.

---

Hey Pommy,

I don’t own a manual yet, have been getting information off of the bullet manufacturers websites and the likes. I think you’re probably right with that assumption. I do have a couple people i can talk to and get them to verify my methods.

Cheers

There is nothing wrong with using reloading manuals from the manufacturers website. Far more likely to be current than some hardcopies you find laying about.

2 quick questions.

You mentioned the IMR you have has been around since your Dad was reloading. How long ago was that and how was it stored?

And, how good a shot are you? No disrespect intended but I have seen people shoot with my rifle/reloads, that are genuine .5 combos, and only just get their group on an A4 page at 100m. Basically, are you good enough to be able to tell if it's the ammo or you?

I'm impressed by your ability to accept all inputs without adverse reaction. Well done & hang in there.
The AB is a great pill for close up ranges (0- 300 or 350 yrd) and larger game, but at 5 - 600 yards you'll find its probably too tough, being a bonded projectile) & may pencil thru an animal with out doing much internal damage (unless you strike bone). Animal in this case may escape a long way before succumbing. Effect may be more exaggerated on smaller/lighter game. For longer range you'd be better of with more frangible pill like the old 162gn AMAX, now ELDM or X. or 160gn Sierra TMK's, or Berger 168 VLD hunting or 168 Classic Hunter. As a side note, Nosler typically overstate their BC's.

or the cheaper and easier to get nosler ballistic tip...which SHOULD pretty much be swappable with no change to anything...AB for close BT for longer...and yes agree its nice to see someone take advice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

There is nothing wrong with using reloading manuals from the manufacturers website. Far more likely to be current than some hardcopies you find laying about.

2 quick questions.

You mentioned the IMR you have has been around since your Dad was reloading. How long ago was that and how was it stored?

And, how good a shot are you? No disrespect intended but I have seen people shoot with my rifle/reloads, that are genuine .5 combos, and only just get their group on an A4 page at 100m. Basically, are you good enough to be able to tell if it's the ammo or you?

---

Hey,

I cannot say for certain how many years it has been sitting for, but it was in screw lid plastic containers and still smells fine according to dad. That is one thing i am weary of though as i’m sure you are implying that it could potentially have gone off or not be as reliable as it once was.
I am by no means a professional shooter, but the shots I took were off a very steady sandbag rest and felt good. I did notice i was flinching slighly at times but stopped to settle a bit before shooting. Definitely not going to be missing the paper at 100m though ;),

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chainsaw

I'm impressed by your ability to accept all inputs without adverse reaction. Well done & hang in there.
The AB is a great pill for close up ranges (0- 300 or 350 yrd) and larger game, but at 5 - 600 yards you'll find its probably too tough, being a bonded projectile) & may pencil thru an animal with out doing much internal damage (unless you strike bone). Animal in this case may escape a long way before succumbing. Effect may be more exaggerated on smaller/lighter game. For longer range you'd be better of with more frangible pill like the old 162gn AMAX, now ELDM or X. or 160gn Sierra TMK's, or Berger 168 VLD hunting or 168 Classic Hunter. As a side note, Nosler typically overstate their BC's.

---

Thanks, may aswell take any advice given seen as it’s not hard to know more or have more experience in this field than me so I’m always all ears. Keen to learn.
I did have quite a look at projectiles before buying and a couple people i work with raved about the Accubonds. Not saying it’s the perfect projectile but I have about 70 left so may aswell try to make them work for now. Question; you noted the ELDM, are match bullets still alright for hunting purposes? What is the difference between a match bullet like the ELDM compared to the X?
Cheers

I'll answer that one for you 7RM

There is no one bullet for everything.
Up close and with large heavy game or shooting bone you need a tougher bullet.
Out past ????? varyies with velocity 200mtr, or smaller or soft skinned game you need a bullet that is softer and opens up more readily.
Hence some people opt to use the ELDX at short range and the ELDM at long range. (NOTE THE LOAD DATA IS QUITE DIFFERENT)

The ELDX has a thicker jacket so opens up slower, or in other words requires more resistance from the target to open up. ie on a side on shot at a red spiker at 300 mtrs just passing through the ribs and a lung or 2 you will get a slow kill.
The ELDM on the other hand has a thin jacket and will open up violently and do far more tissue damage for a fast kill.
But at short range on a large red Stag a shoulder hit may leave a large crater and a wounded deer that may get away, while the ELDX will penetrate right through.
Horses for courses, knowing your anatomy, and knowing your bullet and placement.

However some of us get too worked up over this which bullet thing. A standard cup and lead core soft point has worked for 100 years.
You have some great advice above and look to be taking it in. Don't go chasing top velocity, give yourself some room for errors and your barrels will last a lot longer. Mostly I reload for 2 rifles, 1 a very strong custom bolt action. Book max is 46.7 gr and while I did work up to that load to check I had some head room left, my standard load is 46.0 gr for just over 3000 fps as that gives me all they energy I need out further than I'm happy shooting.
The other is a lever action and on that I typically stop 1-2 gr under book.

Also some bullets will catch you out. This year I had some Speer 75gr HP left over from my Dad that I wanted to use up in the 243. I just went straight to a mid range load thinking I had a strong action all good. Turns out it was not all good, I was lucky really as nothing bad happened but about 1 in 3 I got an ejector swipe mark.
Mentioned to Dad that I had an issue with them and he straight away asked Pressure ???, Turns out that's why he had not used them up in the 1970's.
ALWAYS START AT BOOK MINIMUM.
Z

i just started using eldx , from sst, certainly pretty sweet for long range but no where as good as yer accubond up close.

pending on the price over there, thats sorta my major limiting factor on Accubonds and the like, so ELDX are pre good, however man plain jane Interlocks are guna do the same as he eldx / (SST particularly) out to 5 or 600m before the shape lets down its flight path.. so for the cheaper Same Same, im guna be loading interlocks for punchign paper an the odd deer, an load up some Woodleih 160s (performa same as your Accubond) for sambar hunting strictly out to 500m...


check out Woodleigh prices man, 160gr PPSN is a go-er, you guys could get away with a 140gr for Tahr and Reds....fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZQLewis

I'll answer that one for you 7RM

There is no one bullet for everything.
Up close and with large heavy game or shooting bone you need a tougher bullet.
Out past ????? varyies with velocity 200mtr, or smaller or soft skinned game you need a bullet that is softer and opens up more readily.
Hence some people opt to use the ELDX at short range and the ELDM at long range. (NOTE THE LOAD DATA IS QUITE DIFFERENT)

The ELDX has a thicker jacket so opens up slower, or in other words requires more resistance from the target to open up. ie on a side on shot at a red spiker at 300 mtrs just passing through the ribs and a lung or 2 you will get a slow kill.
The ELDM on the other hand has a thin jacket and will open up violently and do far more tissue damage for a fast kill.
But at short range on a large red Stag a shoulder hit may leave a large crater and a wounded deer that may get away, while the ELDX will penetrate right through.
Horses for courses, knowing your anatomy, and knowing your bullet and placement.

However some of us get too worked up over this which bullet thing. A standard cup and lead core soft point has worked for 100 years.
You have some great advice above and look to be taking it in. Don't go chasing top velocity, give yourself some room for errors and your barrels will last a lot longer. Mostly I reload for 2 rifles, 1 a very strong custom bolt action. Book max is 46.7 gr and while I did work up to that load to check I had some head room left, my standard load is 46.0 gr for just over 3000 fps as that gives me all they energy I need out further than I'm happy shooting.
The other is a lever action and on that I typically stop 1-2 gr under book.

Also some bullets will catch you out. This year I had some Speer 75gr HP left over from my Dad that I wanted to use up in the 243. I just went straight to a mid range load thinking I had a strong action all good. Turns out it was not all good, I was lucky really as nothing bad happened but about 1 in 3 I got an ejector swipe mark.
Mentioned to Dad that I had an issue with them and he straight away asked Pressure ???, Turns out that's why he had not used them up in the 1970's.
ALWAYS START AT BOOK MINIMUM.
Z

---

Very good reply there. Cheers for explaining.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rees

i just started using eldx , from sst, certainly pretty sweet for long range but no where as good as yer accubond up close.

pending on the price over there, thats sorta my major limiting factor on Accubonds and the like, so ELDX are pre good, however man plain jane Interlocks are guna do the same as he eldx / (SST particularly) out to 5 or 600m before the shape lets down its flight path.. so for the cheaper Same Same, im guna be loading interlocks for punchign paper an the odd deer, an load up some Woodleih 160s (performa same as your Accubond) for sambar hunting strictly out to 500m...


check out Woodleigh prices man, 160gr PPSN is a go-er, you guys could get away with a 140gr for Tahr and Reds....fast.

---

Think I paid about 80nzd for 50 accubonds. I have a few of these left so if once they are done or i decide they aren’t what my rifle likes i’ll try something else out. I’ll be sure to check out Woodleigh.

Cheers man

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 7RMBoy

I have measured the max jam length for the accubonds, that length was 3.366” so I seated the bullets at 3.350”. .2gr jumps in powder is how you’d go from here? I’ll give that a go. Cheers!

---

In my 270 the jam point is .285" further out than factory ammo seating depth.
I gained nothing in accuracy by seating 140 AB's .015 - .020 off the lands and think like other posters have written that I should go to factory length as a start point.
From what I have read the bonded bullets are better with a .050 jump and the non bonded bullets .010 ish. Makes it confusing.
I have found AB's to be great bullets, always a pass through with a big glob of blood on the ground. The animals will often run a few metres with blood pouring out but I have never lost one. The AB's open fast and the wound looks like it's been cut with a hole saw.
There is a bloke on the forum @Pongo who probably shoots more deer than anyone here and he uses the 168 Berger in a 7mm Saum or WSM near and far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

In my 270 the jam point is .285" further out than factory ammo seating depth.
I gained nothing in accuracy by seating 140 AB's .015 - .020 off the lands and think like other posters have written that I should go to factory length as a start point.
From what I have read the bonded bullets are better with a .050 jump and the non bonded bullets .010 ish. Makes it confusing.
I have found AB's to be great bullets, always a pass through with a big glob of blood on the ground. The animals will often run a few metres with blood pouring out but I have never lost one. The AB's open fast and the wound looks like it's been cut with a hole saw.
There is a bloke on the forum @Pongo who probably shoots more deer than anyone here and he uses the 168 Berger in a 7mm Saum or WSM near and far.

---

Have just bought a set of comparators so i’ll be able to compare the distance off the lands between my loads and the factory ammunition

Powder weight seems to be one of the less important factors in accuracy.
People do chase the fabled "nodes" and "most accurate powder charge" but in my limited experience point of impact and group size don't change much with powder weight. So what you're seeing is very common.

It's a good idea to buy a box of factory ammo with components similar to what you'll reload and shoot a 5 shot group of it each reload testing session as a control. Generally, reloads will at least match factory ammo and if they don't you will have a problem with your equipment or process which you can fix.

Two key factors are cartridge headspace and concentricity.

7RM was designed to headspace off the belt but in practice it has to be off the shoulder so get a shoulder insert for your comparator and see how much you're sizing them down each time. Adjust the die til its around 0.003". 7RM loaders can confirm if that's right for that cartridge. My smaller cartridges are 0.003" and 0.001" shorter after full length sizing, which is all I do.

Concentricity is said to be the most important thing. Perhaps your sizing or seating die isn't sitting straight in the press. Or the die you have is a dud. Use lube on the inside neck or expander ball. Others may be able to suggest how to investigate or correct this.

Trimming brass to length, squaring the mouth and a gentle chamfer may also help bullet seating.

Start by expecting to shoot deer at 300m. 500m is too far, even with a magnum. Until you've done a lot of target shooting with it.

concintricity....when you seating projectile...start it in just a little bit,then spin it 180degrees and finish seating it.
agree 100% on last bit there Bagheera...300yards is a good distance away...untill you can CONSISTANTLY put projectiles into area size of 2ltr milk bottle at that range...get closer.