New barrel vs New rifle conundrum

Hey Guys. I finally had a play with the chrony. To cut it short I think I need a new barrel. Any way loads listed below.
These were shot through my M17 25-06
117gr SST 59gr AR2217 3023.4 fps average 44.6 fps spread. Starting to show flattened primers etc, no sticky bolt lift though.
My original hunting load 117gr pro hunters 47gr 2209 average 2824fps spread 213 fps.
The grouping wasn't good and all shot to the right of the target. Was shot prone when normally shot off a bench. (maybe pushed them right?)
My barrel heated up real quick and although I can shoot an inch three shot group with it when I let the barrel cool after each shot. When shooting one shot after another they spread 3-4 inches with 6 shot groups at 100yards. I can see a couple of scratches down the barrel, barrel looks shiny and rifling looks good to my untrained eye. But the scratches may be causing the copper/lead to heat the barrel more by friction? It is an old barrel buhler/stahl? So either I buy a new rifle or a new barrel. New barrel fitted etc $900.00
My rifle is a M17 action, leupold duel dovetail mounts/rings and the action has been pillar bedded with a timney trigger. So I am leaning towards a new barrel as the M17 is a good action from what I have read. What do you guys reckon?

I also had a play with my .303-25
My best loads for accuracy were through my .303-25 (use a reloading manual data for your own loads, mine may not be safe in your rifle)
75gr SST 40gr AR2208 3173 fps ave
90 gr Gamekings 36.6g AR2208 2860 fps ave
100gr Pro hunter 36.6gr AR2208 2786 fps ave
These all shot round an inch group.

Ok, so a couple of questions.

Is the issue you are concerned about headspace ? Flat primers without heavy bolt lift is more a sign of headspace issues than pressure to me.

Or are you suddenly seeing MV changes ?

Are you full length sizing or neck sizing only ? Do a shoulder measurement of a fireformed case.

Repeat the test with your usual bench setup, preferably sturdy front and rear rests.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebf

Ok, so a couple of questions.

Is the issue you are concerned about headspace ? Flat primers without heavy bolt lift is more a sign of headspace issues than pressure to me.

Or are you suddenly seeing MV changes ?

Are you full length sizing or neck sizing only ? Do a shoulder measurement of a fireformed case.

Repeat the test with your usual bench setup, preferably sturdy front and rear rests.

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These were loads I worked up to, to see where my max load is. Lighter loads primers were fine.
The primers were not completely flat, but definitely flattening around the edge compared to lighter loads. .5 gr over ADI's max.
MV was going up each .5gr increment added.
I neck sized the brass so head space should be good.
Head space was done by my gunsmith when he re-reamed the chamber to 25-06 rem

It's just that I seem to be chasing my tail with the 25-06 rem. I can get a good group if I let the barrel cool completely and shoot off the bench, but even three quick shots they start to spread and the barrel is pretty hot. So as it has recently been pillar/glass bedded etc and no pinching of the action etc, I'm thinking that the old barrel is letting me down.
Where as my 303-25 seems to group with what ever I put down it. (it has a fairly new barrel)

You trying SST right ? How far off the lands is your CBTO ?

Maybe try another projectile or test batches of different seating depth on the SST ?

Have you given the barrel a bloody good clean and stripped all off the copper out?

If it shoots better with a lighter load then just go with that. If the chamber has been re cut then there should be no problems with head space etc

If you aren't getting the results you want then buy a new rifle by all means if you think it might make a difference

Interesting reading. Maybe it's in bad need of a clean? That's as tech as I can get.
Did it shoot ok for you originally? Or after been pillar bedded etc? Has it ever shot well?
More questions than answers sorry but even my Finnlight, (light as barrel) after a few quick shots, hot as, still groups 2" at 200metres...good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebf

You trying SST right ? How far off the lands is your CBTO ?

Maybe try another projectile or test batches of different seating depth on the SST ?

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Yep 117 gr SST 1mm off the lands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danny

Interesting reading. Maybe it's in bad need of a clean? That's as tech as I can get.
Did it shoot ok for you originally? Or after been pillar bedded etc? Has it ever shot well?
More questions than answers sorry but even my Finnlight, (light as barrel) after a few quick shots, hot as, still groups 2" at 200metres...good luck.

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Yeah that's my point, I think the barrel is letting the rifle down. I have cleaned and cleaned the barrel, after using bore tech and brushes and then patches until clear. Then if I put more bore tech and a brush through it, it comes out black again. I've scrubbed that barrel more than any other rifle I have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Land Rover

Hey Guys. I finally had a play with the chrony. To cut it short I think I need a new barrel. Any way loads listed below.
These were shot through my M17 25-06
117gr SST 59gr AR2217 3023.4 fps average 44.6 fps spread. Starting to show flattened primers etc, no sticky bolt lift though.
My original hunting load 117gr pro hunters 47gr 2209 average 2824fps spread 213 fps.
The grouping wasn't good and all shot to the right of the target. Was shot prone when normally shot off a bench. (maybe pushed them right?)
My barrel heated up real quick and although I can shoot an inch three shot group with it when I let the barrel cool after each shot. When shooting one shot after another they spread 3-4 inches with 6 shot groups at 100yards. I can see a couple of scratches down the barrel, barrel looks shiny and rifling looks good to my untrained eye. But the scratches may be causing the copper/lead to heat the barrel more by friction? It is an old barrel buhler/stahl? So either I buy a new rifle or a new barrel. New barrel fitted etc $900.00
My rifle is a M17 action, leupold duel dovetail mounts/rings and the action has been pillar bedded with a timney trigger. So I am leaning towards a new barrel as the M17 is a good action from what I have read. What do you guys reckon?

I also had a play with my .303-25
My best loads for accuracy were through my .303-25 (use a reloading manual data for your own loads, mine may not be safe in your rifle)
75gr SST 40gr AR2208 3173 fps ave
90 gr Gamekings 36.6g AR2208 2860 fps ave
100gr Pro hunter 36.6gr AR2208 2786 fps ave
These all shot round an inch group.

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howdy
I think Bohler stahl is what the barrel is made of

New barrel vs New rifle conundrum, not really, its a bloody good excuse to get both

Try different powder maybe 2225 or2213Sc. The 25-06 pretty much goes from mild pressure to max in a few grains.

I don't think its the powders, headspace etc because why would it group an inch when I let the barrel cool completely after each shot and then start spreading with a string of shots and the barrel is bloody hot?

Is your barrel free floating, could be touching the stock when it heats up. I had a 270wsm that did like you're describing and after i opened up the barrel chanel it sorted the issue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wsm junkie

Is your barrel free floating, could be touching the stock when it heats up. I had a 270wsm that did like you're describing and after i opened up the barrel chanel it sorted the issue

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Yep, the barrel is free floating.

By how much ? Can you fold a sheet of laser printer paper in half and slide that all the way to the action ?

Other thing to look for is maybe some oil got in between your action and bedding ?

Curious that it only does it when hot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebf

By how much ? Can you fold a sheet of laser printer paper in half and slide that all the way to the action ?

Other thing to look for is maybe some oil got in between your action and bedding ?

Curious that it only does it when hot.

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Yep totally free floating, the old barrel heats up then throws the projectiles all over the show.
Any way my gun smith is getting a new barrel for me. Chrome moly 26" 1 in10 twist. 25-06 rem
He was keen at 24" but I want it longer as I can always dock it 2 inches later if it is too cumbersome.
Will let you know how it shoots. (could be a while). In the mean time my 25-303 will get a bit of use.

Hmmmm - free floating isn't always the answer. As I understand it if a barrel has any stress in it then when it heats up it moves to release the stress, just like any metal.

I have a very accurate rifle with a light barrel that likes upward pressure at the fore-end.

Its really easy to test, just fill the gap with some card and shoot some groups with different thicknesses. If it works with card replace it with filler.

Cheers

I have new M17 barrels in 30-06 if that helps. $430.

Hi Guys

I had a look down my old barrel with a bore scope. And though to the naked eye my barrel looked bright and shiny, the bore scope showed up pitting all the way down.
It is an old barrel and I don't know its history. So this may explain why it has been erratic with groups and heating up quickly etc. Any way my new barrel should be at my gunsmiths any day now. It does show the value of a bore scope, especially when buying a second hand rifle.

cheers LR