Hi all. I have a question in regards to using pistol powders in rifle cast reduced loads. Why do some powders require some sort of filler but others don't? Thanks
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Hi all. I have a question in regards to using pistol powders in rifle cast reduced loads. Why do some powders require some sort of filler but others don't? Thanks
I've never used fillers in any of my reduced loads except for black powder.
Unique and blue dot are my go to powders for 310 cadet, 3030, 303, 44/40.
It's said the filler keeps the small powder charge up against the primer ensuring ignition, rubbish if your primer can't fill the case with sparks it's stuffed.
In my opinion using dacron etc is likely to put a coat of melted plastic in your bore which I would rather avoid.
If you have access to old reloading books especially lyman ones there's no mention of fillers with any loads.
Suggest you do a lot of research on using fillers. Some still use them. They were used a fair bit a few decades back and notable writers published load info. What came up for me is that there were instances reported of detonation in loads with filler used damaging or destroying firearms and causing injury. The real issue was that despite several attempts, such detonation could not be repeated reliably under lab conditions. So no-one knows why the same load with filler has no issues over hundreds of reloads for one person yet can detonate either at a later point for that person or for someone else. That is too loose for me.
I focused on the use of Red Dot in "The Load". Research it for yourself but basically 13gn of (the old) Red Dot in any 30cal cartridge with cast bullets around 200gn producing around 1400- 1600 fps - your mileage may vary.
I found some old ICI Nobel 78 Shotgun powder, a larger flake powder, gives a reliable result of the same order. I use it without issues, so far, in 30-30, 308, 303B for velocities ranging from 900fps to 1800fps the latter being very stout. 1600fps is a sweet spot for me.
It has not detonated - yet. I also use it with great performance and reliability in 45ACP, 38sp and 357mag pistol and LA loads
There is no published load data for this powder.
I have never used fillers.
Others use AP70N in similar fashion.
I am not recommending you do as I do. If you want to go down this path do a lot of research and cross referencing and don't take any one assertion as gospel. Its your eyes, face and fingers you are risking.
Don't go near ball powders or standard rifle powders (SR4759 excepted) for reduced loads with or without fillers. Just don't....
Some powders are sensitive to the position of the powder (when not a full case of it) in relation to the primer, hence why the filler is required to keep the powder back by the primer. I use IMR4198 for reduced recoil youth-type loads in rifles cases, and that powder is not sensitive to the position in the case with reduced loads. Its not a pistol powder as such, but is fast burning, and is commonly referenced for use with cast bullet reduced rifle loads.
I wish 4759 was still available
Yeah my bit is well locked up lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Marty Henry
Check out a guru's experience:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...use-of-fillers
@Jhon
Have a look at this post re Nobel's powder data:
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....rtridge-81222/
Yes, you will see me on that thread. I have a full manual for ICI Nobel Rifle & Pistol powders. They did not publish data for Nobel 78 Shotgun Powder in Pistol or rifle as far as I knowQuote:
Originally Posted by rupert
Plenty of data on the web using blue dot for reduced loads.
I load 8.0 grains under a 55 grain Rusa CMJ projectile for 1800 fps.
Nice load for the kids, a good small game hunting load.
Cheap load to boot.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I do have AP70N. Just trying to work out a good load and what existing load data I can use as a reference, min and max load etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhon
I bought some Trailboss off a dude in Katikati and he showed me how he used a smidgen of cotton off a cotton bud as his filler. Used it on both 223 and 308 rounds.Due to start some 308 as I have the Tok 151 308 pills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Henry
Has he got more TB?Quote:
Originally Posted by TeRei
Trailboss doesn't need filler.
when you half fill the case then turn it on its side all of the powder gravitates flat then the primer cannot properly ignite it like it would if it was full so you get a double detonation potential
or so I was told by the old fella who showed me how to make subs.
he just used the fluff out of a pillow by the looks of things
I decided that looked like it wasnt the best way forward and went with trailboss
his subs were A LOT cleaner than trailboss if that matters to you, but they were no more or less accurate
Start with 10gn. 13-14gn is going to be very close to or over max. Work up slowly. Heavy bolt lift = retreat quickly. Also look for extractor imprint, or a shiny mark. Primers won't tell you much unless they are blown and then you will certainly knowQuote:
Originally Posted by Three O'Three
Page from my 43rd edition lyman book. In their powder equivalents table ADI list AP 70n as being equivalent to unique and 4197 as approximating 2207 so you get the idea. It doesn't need a filler.
Go through any of the older books and you quickly see why 10 grains of unique is called the do it all load for cast bullets.
Thanks @Marty HenryQuote:
Originally Posted by Marty Henry
Ap70n is ADI's version of Unique it is sold in the US as Universal standard cast bullet start load is 10 grains in .30 cal rifles with a 180-200 grain bullet,Quote:
Originally Posted by Three O'Three
should not need a filler if the velocity is iractic then a filler will help,
Detonations only happen with small powder charges of very slow burning powder, none have been with fast pistol powders but double loads are the cause
of blown guns, if using fast powder only load one case with powder and seat the bullet don't fill a loading block of cases with powder it will go wrong sooner
than later.
@Marty Henry. Got a page with 243 data?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Henry
Yep, guess what powder and weight of it goes behind a 95 grain bullet. Thats right 10 grains and its unique.
@Marty Henry. Bottom right corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Henry
Attachment 201058
I understand that pillow fluff is polyester and the same as what some reloaders refer to as "Dacron". It's main application is that the powder will have the same position up against the primer whether you shoot horizontal, up or down. Some powders like TB are "position insensitive" but I don't think that means it makes absolutely no difference to have it stacked consistently against the flash hole. I salvaged some from a torn pillow and into a larger jar than I'll ever finish as you need only a tiny amount to do the job, you don't stuff in as much as you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill999
Looking at my 4th addition as well there are some different powders mentioned for the lighter 243 but the concepts the same. Your photo seems the same format as the later lyman manual of mine.
For reference here are the pages and some more 303.
Old manuals are a great resource the data was produced by doing not computer.
Reason I believed 2208 would be good for 303 cast is because of the bottom line.
Attachment 201145
Also looking at this. It has 26gn of h414 and 24gn of h4895 listed. To my knowledge 2208 having a burn rate in-between the two, one would assume 25g of 2208 would also work? Which I tried with good results.
Attachment 201146
That’s a waste of 2208 when you can use unique or trailbossQuote:
Originally Posted by Three O'Three
The 10gn unique load is long established across a range of cast bullet rifle calibres
IMHO super fast burners including TB don't need a filler. They work fine for subsonic loads and I have never had one that "failed to light".Quote:
Originally Posted by rupert
I suspect the detonations that have occurred are due to double or tipple charging the super fast powder which is an understandable result. I would suggest visually checking all loads.
Use AP70. I use it for small game loads in most of my "big"" rifles.
Unique and Universal/AP70N was specifically designed for low powered loads. In a high velocity cartridge, such as the .303, .308 or .243 try 12-14 grains; will get you about 1600 fps depending on bullet weight. In the 30/06 I have gone up to 16 grains. I use it in the .223 as well, with 7.5 grains and a 55 grain bullet giving me 2000fps, which is my new ".22 Magnum"". (And its much more accurate than any real .22 Mag I ever met in person, and guess what, its actually cheaper.)
You will find that it is extremely accurate as a low powered load in a big cartridge. Every load you make will shoot well.
As for fillers..., I have experimented a fair bit with paper, cotton wool, cornmeal, semolina...all of this is to try and get consistent ignition and therefor velocity when using position sensitive powders. H4227 / 2205 was the main culprit. I found that fillers sort of worked, and also sort of didn't because they were not reliable. Four rounds would be bang on, and the fifth would fly wild. I tried folding paper different ways. I tried cotton wool and paper together. I tried semolina. There was confetti and cotton wool fluttering down in clouds.
The upshot was that any filler increased pressure a great deal, and sometimes it would spike higher or lower because the filler would move, or the powder would. And this was just taking them to the range. I remember that after I had taken a batch of cartridges back and forth to the range in the car, hiked it around hunting, reloading the cartridges it in and out of the rifle several times, I started to wonder what was going on inside the cases. Weeks later I dissassembled a few rounds and then found that in every single one of them the filler had failed to keep the powder in the right place and I just had a case full of filler and powder mixed together. So I gave it up.
Later I got some AP70N, and life became sensible again. AP70N is position sensitive to an extent, because I have tested it, but much less than some other powders, certainly less than 2205, and I can live with it.
The only filler I use now, is black powder. But that is a tale for another day.
yes and THAT tale needs telling.........PLEASE.
