Powder: How old is too old?

Evening,

Brought a rifle off GWH and his load was with H414. A mate left me a heap of powder to look after and there was some H414 in there. I loaded up some rounds and shot them at 100m seemed to group ok and being a novice reloader unsure what would be the next step to improve.
We also shot this over the chrony and gave us readings of 100fps slower than GWH loads. Could have possibly been the conditions affecting the chrony.

Spoke with a mate turns out the powder is 15 years old. Is this too old? I read H414 is now discontinued so if it is too old then i'll have to find something that is in stock.

Didn't have enough loads for 5 shots each. 2 different shooters. First shot is spot on and then the other 2 grouped close to each other just further away from the 1st. 100m with 25mm hash marks.
Attachment 221054
Attachment 221053

Stored properly 15 years is no problem, plenty of people use ammunition loaded 50 or more years ago. If it's now obsolete just use it up and then find a near equivalent and start load development again.

There you go - (not my words but certainly my understanding)

H414 is the exact same powder as W760. Essentially Hodgdon was buying W760 from Olin (Winchester) and relabeling it. Now that Hodgdon owns Olin they dropped the H414 name. Data is 100% interchangeable on every reloading manual I have ever seen.11/12/2020

There are also suggestions that very early on (longer ago than 15 years) that there may have been difference between them or differences between earlier lots of W760 and the later lots. Same old warning still apllies - work up.

I have one rifle that I load for using W760 and I'm a fan.

GWH's loads would have been from a different bach of powder so 100 ftps difference is quite on the cards.

A wee bit of fine tuning and you will be sweet

Stored properly it should last decades.

Thank you for the comments. Mate was pretty good at reloading and very careful with all his gear so sure it would have been stored well.
What would peoples next step be then to fine tune? Reload some more at GWH load and try for some 5 shot groups to check?

I recently finished a full tin of Nobel Rifle No 1. Made in 1933. Used in 243 across 3 rifles. Excellent powder. Bought it apparently unopened for $10. Have had others from 50s and 60s, full and part tins in excellent condition..never found any I felt needed throwing. I worry more about part tins having mixed up powder in them. I scrutinize it carefully. Your mileage may differ.

It's not so much age so much affecting powders viability as the storage conditions. Appropriately stored it can last decades. I know a handloader in Dubai who was gifted some Egyptian ammo more than 100 years old. Broke it all down and kept the (extruded ) powder which he still uses today. It's perfect.
Generally, powder is remarkably stable but in some situations can go off. Happened to me once with a 1 lb plastic container of V140 ( IIRC ). Opened the bottle and saw reddy / orange granules and a wee puff of very sharp smelling dust rose straight up into my nostrils and left me gasping for a few seconds. I dumped it pretty smartly.

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Originally Posted by Ranal

Thank you for the comments. Mate was pretty good at reloading and very careful with all his gear so sure it would have been stored well.
What would peoples next step be then to fine tune? Reload some more at GWH load and try for some 5 shot groups to check?

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Looks like the load isn't too bad however if you are sure his loads were running 100 ftps faster than yours then it may be worth loading some going up in .1 of a grain at a time to see if when you reach his speed the groupes tighten some more.

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Originally Posted by Jhon

I recently finished a full tin of Nobel Rifle No 1. Made in 1933. Used in 243 across 3 rifles. Excellent powder. Bought it apparently unopened for $10. Have had others from 50s and 60s, full and part tins in excellent condition..never found any I felt needed throwing. I worry more about part tins having mixed up powder in them. I scrutinize it carefully. Your mileage may differ.

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I have some more once first 243 brass probably the rest of the packets i gave you prior to your departure if youd like them.

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Originally Posted by 7mm Rem Mag

Looks like the load isn't too bad however if you are sure his loads were running 100 ftps faster than yours then it may be worth loading some going up in .1 of a grain at a time to see if when you reach his speed the groupes tighten some more.

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I need to find the chrony print out. Only had 1 round of his and 2 of mine left for the chrony. Even if it wasn't reading correct speeds was 100fps difference between the loads. and i think his round was over a 100fps slower than what he recorded. Will load up some groups slowly going up and see how it goes. Cheers
Managed to find his old posts detailing his trials of different powders on here last night so if it doesn't work, there are some other powders i know are newer and can try those loads.

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Originally Posted by Ranal

I have some more once first 243 brass probably the rest of the packets i gave you prior to your departure if youd like them.

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Ok, PM?

Silly question but are you using the same brand brass as the previous load was?

When powder goes off it releases a red dust and smells acidic. Where abouts its normally basic. If you smell the two or are familiar with powder it is very distinct and will know straight away.

Sounds like something else could be amiss

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Originally Posted by mattstr

Silly question but are you using the same brand brass as the previous load was?

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Previous owner supplied the brass. Same brand just new.

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Originally Posted by Nugget connaisseur

When powder goes off it releases a red dust and smells acidic. Where abouts its normally basic. If you smell the two or are familiar with powder it is very distinct and will know straight away.

Sounds like something else could be amiss

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Looks and smells fine.

Just recently disposed of a pound of 3031 recently. Pissed me orf as I was still using it in my 308 sporter.
I had been watching it for a while. Detected a slight colour change from what I had seen in the past and then the strong acrid smell.
Had a nice fire out on the drive. Should have fust thrown it on the lawn as it's supposedly good fertiliser.

Was about 40 ish years old (c 1980) but even then should have been OK as I've always been careful about how I store my powders.

Other experience I had years ago was with recovered milsurp 4895. It was also about 40 years old (c 1944) which should still have been OK. I had it in an old Nobels #2 metal can which had a small screwtop lid. The lid actually blew off and the powder fumed vigorously. Quite scary as in those days all my reloading stuff was stored in a bedroom.

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Originally Posted by Ranal

Thank you for the comments. Mate was pretty good at reloading and very careful with all his gear so sure it would have been stored well.
What would peoples next step be then to fine tune? Reload some more at GWH load and try for some 5 shot groups to check?

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its working..next step put chronicgraph behind centre of target and fire a 5 shot group to confirm accuracy..oops now chronicgraph is rooted so not the velocity of said accurate load is considered good enough...go shoot stuff and be happy with load as it is.