Thread: Reloading 25-06 - Opinion on Primer

I half mentioned this on another thread re a mate reloading 6.5 Creedmoor - I have copied the question in below. I have included a photo of a fired case that has been tumbled - thoughts/opinions on the fired primer please? Rifle is a Tikka 695.

I have been reloading 25-06 for about 25+ years, using 52gr of 2209 and 100 grain Interlocks. I am no expert so I had everything checked by a gunsmith at the time. He said it was a relatively mild load with no pressure signs what so ever. When I started reloading the max load at that time was 54gr - I see today the ADI hand loaders guide max is 50gr? So dumb question (don't hang me) - has the same powder (2209) changed over the years? or has the max load been de-tuned/wound back to add a larger safety margin for other reasons?

Also - I was looking at a Nick Harvey manual a couple of days ago and the max load was 52grs of 2209 for a 100 grain projectile.

Cheers.

@grandpamac

Greetings @Camel,
I did read your comment in your previous thread and did some digging meaning to reply but did not get round to it. My apologies.
First in my admittedly not particularly humble opinion fired primer appearance is unreliable as an indicator of pressure. Your history of loading the .25-06 over many years without problems is more relevant. Additionally the Hornady interlock projectiles you are using are noted for producing lower pressure and velocity. The 50 grain load of AR2209 with the 100 grain goes back to at least the middle 1990's and my testing in the 6.5x55 has shown a significant increase in speed of AR2209 around 2002. If your AR2209 is in a metal can your powder is likely to be the slower version.
All that said the best indicator of pressure is the measured velocity developed. The Hodgdons data lists a velocity of 3,150 fps for 50 grains of H4350/ AR2209 with a 100 grain Nosler projectile. The Nosler data is hotter listing up to 53.5 grains of H4350 for 3,318 fps. Both are for 24" barrels.
So to the punch line. I suspect you do not have a chronograph but I have found that chronographed velocity is the best indication of pressure available to the average handloader. I suspect that your load is producing around 3,200 fps assuming a 24" barrel and very likely less. Getting i chronographed should set your mid at rest.
Regards Grandpamac.

Greetings again,
I cross checked the Nosler IMR4350 data for the 100 grain against my 1970 vintage manual, a near perfect match, so the Nosler H4350/ AR2209 data may be old as well.
GPM.

@Camel
As one who does check primer appearance relative to working up loads if your pictured primer was mine, assuming not brand new brass and a properly set FL die, I would say all is well and that load was not at max yet. In fact I would say you may still have room for increasing powder charges if there was reason to do so.
I'm not disputing anything from @grandpamac who is well studied on this stuff but that is my take.
And I will say primer condition needs to be considered alongside other possible pressure indicators to determine if the region of excess pressures is being approached.

Originally Posted by 30.06king

@Camel
As one who does check primer appearance relative to working up loads if your pictured primer was mine, assuming not brand new brass and a properly set FL die, I would say all is well and that load was not at max yet. In fact I would say you may still have room for increasing powder charges if there was reason to do so.
I'm not disputing anything from @grandpamac who is well studied on this stuff but that is my take.
And I will say primer condition needs to be considered alongside other possible pressure indicators to determine if the region of excess pressures is being approached.

Greetings @30.06king,
20 years ago I would have agreed with you. About that time a friend worked up a load for his 6.5-06 using the ADI data from their 2020 pamphlet. Close to the ADI maximum everything looked great. Sparkling velocity, primers looked perfect by my eye as well as his and accuracy was excellent. Just one problem, not one case in the batch of 100 would hold a primer when he tried to reload them. Current load data for the cartridge stops well short of those loads. This and other experiences including reading convinced me that velocity was a much more reliable indicator of pressure than primer appearance, bolt lift or any of the other commonly used indicators.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @30.06king,
20 years ago I would have agreed with you. About that time a friend worked up a load for his 6.5-06 using the ADI data from their 2020 pamphlet. Close to the ADI maximum everything looked great. Sparkling velocity, primers looked perfect by my eye as well as his and accuracy was excellent. Just one problem, not one case in the batch of 100 would hold a primer when he tried to reload them. Current load data for the cartridge stops well short of those loads. This and other experiences including reading convinced me that velocity was a much more reliable indicator of pressure than primer appearance, bolt lift or any of the other commonly used indicators.
Regards Grandpamac.

That is the ADI 2000 pamphlet. Grrr.

The primer is fine.
2209 has not changed in over twenty years. Also, your rifle is different to others. Loads in the books are a guide. Unless you are using the exact same components and the same rifle, you will get different results to the loads in the books. A chronograph is your best measurement of pressure. If you are getting more velocity than they are then you are dealing with more pressure.
Brass life will tell you as well; if you have been loading this for 25 years then its demonstrably fine in your rifle I would say.

(I have noticed that Hodgdon have recently reduced their data for 2208 / Varget in the .223, while ADI has not. I do not know why. I am still using the old loads.)

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @30.06king,
20 years ago I would have agreed with you. About that time a friend worked up a load for his 6.5-06 using the ADI data from their 2020 pamphlet. Close to the ADI maximum everything looked great. Sparkling velocity, primers looked perfect by my eye as well as his and accuracy was excellent. Just one problem, not one case in the batch of 100 would hold a primer when he tried to reload them. Current load data for the cartridge stops well short of those loads. This and other experiences including reading convinced me that velocity was a much more reliable indicator of pressure than primer appearance, bolt lift or any of the other commonly used indicators.
Regards Grandpamac.

@grandpamac
A Norma guy ( ballistician ? ) once told me "you pay for velocity with pressure". Took me a while but as I developed as a handloader eventually understood that to be true. It probably ties in with your use of velocity as a pressure indicator. My experience taught me my indicators are reliable for me - fired primer appearance, stiff bolt lift, loosening primer pockets ( relative to brass quality ), sudden velocity spike departing from the chronograph trend - and daring to push past these usually led to blown primers which is scary stuff. I definitely want to stay in safe territory with pressures although if justified I happily settle on a load approaching the max limit for the particular rifle for which a load is being developed. I think experience shooting one's own handloads imparts some sense of when the envelope is being pushed. Sometimes when shooting ladders I have stopped when seeing that the safe zone has been maxed or breached by my indicators suggesting so. Most of my most accurate loads would be considered hot by some / many handloaders and I know they are either at or very close to the max pressures I want to work with and I do continue to shoot them so long as brass life stays good. Only a couple I had to either reduce or abandon for another load when brass life was obviously being rapidly shortened.
What all this tells me, in my mind at least, is that my methods seem to work for me. Not saying it's the only method just what my experience has led me to. Interestingly, the Norma guy I referenced above also suggested pressure indicators that match mine. But, it was some years ago so I'm not saying they remain reliable indicators as much more about ballistics is known these days.

Apologies to @Camel for talking over his thread. Often happens with NZHS content but hope there is something useful there.

Originally Posted by John Duxbury

The primer is fine.
2209 has not changed in over twenty years. Also, your rifle is different to others. Loads in the books are a guide. Unless you are using the exact same components and the same rifle, you will get different results to the loads in the books. A chronograph is your best measurement of pressure. If you are getting more velocity than they are then you are dealing with more pressure.
Brass life will tell you as well; if you have been loading this for 25 years then its demonstrably fine in your rifle I would say.

(I have noticed that Hodgdon have recently reduced their data for 2208 / Varget in the .223, while ADI has not. I do not know why. I am still using the old loads.)

The reduction is to bring all of their data into line with the needs of the AR's that everyone seems to have in the US. This makes the data useless to us in Oz and NZ. Hopefully ADI will keep the data on line but I am not holding my breath.
GPM.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Attachment 284828

Greetings Micky and all.
That information was first in the No1 Nosler manual published in 1976. It includes all of the items that can produce those symptoms with normal pressure. In 1976 few had a chronograph available, I certainly didn't, so the Nosler pressure symptoms were the best available to most. Things are different now. If we are getting book velocity after allowing for barrel length etc then we are likely to be close to book pressure.
GPM.

And just to throw my unqualified 2 cents worth in.... found out by experience, not teachings, is that different primer brands have differing primer cup hardness. Or thickness, whichever applies. Some brands crater and/or flatten at differing velocities/pressure to other brands. And to add the the confusion. Firing pin protrusion plays a part also.
My findings are solid, but I'm happy to be corrected. If someone has the backing of proven science..... I might learn something.