seating die is pulling out bullets

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings again,
It occurred to me that the loose shell holder may be causing the neck to be pulled out of line by the expander. This may cause crooked seating and binding in the seating stem when the projectile is seated. One way to get round this to check is to first deprime the cases (I use a punch and base set but Lee offers a universal depriming tool. Next size the case with the expander out of the die and last run the expander in and out of the case just enough to expand the neck if required.
All my .303 loading is with light loads so I use a Lee Loader for most of the steps. Initial depriming followed by neck sizing. If needed the expander on my FL set is run in and out of the neck just enough to expand the neck and no more. Mostly I don't bother with this.
Regards GPM.

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Ok, I might try this out, but I get the feeling I should ideally look out for a better set of dies or at least another shell holder.
Ive found someone with a cheap lyman set, but have been reading that hornady new dimension have a good set that gives better results than neck sizing by adjusting the FL die to partial resize. I thought you could do that with any FL die, but there could be something more to it?
Have also read that Forster have the best dies available, but I feel its probably just personal choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings again,
It occurred to me that the loose shell holder may be causing the neck to be pulled out of line by the expander. This may cause crooked seating and binding in the seating stem when the projectile is seated. One way to get round this to check is to first deprime the cases (I use a punch and base set but Lee offers a universal depriming tool. Next size the case with the expander out of the die and last run the expander in and out of the case just enough to expand the neck if required.
All my .303 loading is with light loads so I use a Lee Loader for most of the steps. Initial depriming followed by neck sizing. If needed the expander on my FL set is run in and out of the neck just enough to expand the neck and no more. Mostly I don't bother with this.
Regards GPM.

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Well,,,it won't be helping, that's for sure.

I'd get a new shell holder before buying new dies.

For 20 bucks i may as well get the Lyman set, as it will at least have a better shell holder presumably

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Originally Posted by Old_School

Ok, I might try this out, but I get the feeling I should ideally look out for a better set of dies or at least another shell holder.
Ive found someone with a cheap lyman set, but have been reading that hornady new dimension have a good set that gives better results than neck sizing by adjusting the FL die to partial resize. I thought you could do that with any FL die, but there could be something more to it?
Have also read that Forster have the best dies available, but I feel its probably just personal choice.

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Greetings again,
Partial re sizing can be an option in more tapered cases like the 303 if pressures are kept down. Some 303 chambers can be pretty loose and when the neck is sized far enough the body is sized down. This can move the shoulder forward resulting in hard chambering. My first attempts at loading for a 303, now 50 years ago, resulted in a very steep learning curve. I sold my 303 rifles and bought a new 308. 10 years ago I bought another 303 after learning a bit more about handloading. I neck size only using a Lee Loader and keep loads using AR2206H light, mostly start loads or less. Will post more on this later today.
GPM.

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Originally Posted by Old_School

For 20 bucks i may as well get the Lyman set, as it will at least have a better shell holder presumably

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That's veerry cheap.

Greetings all,
A bit more on neck sizing to get decent life from .303 brass. .303 cases which are full length sized with the die hard down on the shell holder often crack a few mm in front of the rim on as early as the 3rd load with full power loads. This is caused by a combination of excess head space and a roomy chamber. While this can be compensated for by setting the FL die back from the shell holder it is fiddly. For most their .303 is not their primary rifle but more of a blast from the past and there is an easier option. This involves neck sizing the cases and keeping the pressure down so they don't stretch in the first place.
I used to do a bit of 4P shooting using my .308. After some time doing this the recoil became a bit tiresome for shooting at 100 and 200 metres so I started backing off the load. With the 150 grain Hornady Interlock I initially loaded 40 grains and later 38 grains or AR2206H for around 2,450 and 2,350 fps respectively. Only neck sizing was needed and cases that chambered a little hard came out chambering freely after firing. Primers protruded slightly after firing which told me that the pressures were low enough not to stretch the cases on which necks were annealed at each 3rd load.
Later the first .303 appeared in the safe and 40 grains of AR2209 was paired with the 174 grain Hornady RN at 1,930 fps and later 32 grains of AR2206H for about 2,050 fps. 34 grains of AR2206H with the 150 grain Norma gave 2,050 fps. Only neck sized cases are used.
The rimmed case on the .303 is actually an advantage in that the headspace is set by the rim and not the shoulder so the soft loads do not set the shoulder back as they can in rimless cases.
As far as neck sizing goes the Lee Loader die produces the straightest cases followed closely by the Lee Collet die. The latter does require cases to be annealed frequently. There are more expensive neck dies that work well but are likely overkill on a .303. The cartridge specific neck dies come next and it may be possible to use a .308 FL die to neck size for the .303 if adjusted correctly but best results may be achieved if the depriming, neck sizing and neck expansion are carried out as separate steps.
Happy to answer questions.
GPM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings again,
Partial re sizing can be an option in more tapered cases like the 303 if pressures are kept down. Some 303 chambers can be pretty loose and when the neck is sized far enough the body is sized down. This can move the shoulder forward resulting in hard chambering. My first attempts at loading for a 303, now 50 years ago, resulted in a very steep learning curve. I sold my 303 rifles and bought a new 308. 10 years ago I bought another 303 after learning a bit more about handloading. I neck size only using a Lee Loader and keep loads using AR2206H light, mostly start loads or less. Will post more on this later today.
GPM.

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MY loads are probably considered high pressure, im loading them with AR2209 which is a fairly low pressure powder, but its a near full load with a 174 grain bullet and a load of 46.5 grains to get near 2400fps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings all,
A bit more on neck sizing to get decent life from .303 brass. .303 cases which are full length sized with the die hard down on the shell holder often crack a few mm in front of the rim on as early as the 3rd load with full power loads. This is caused by a combination of excess head space and a roomy chamber. While this can be compensated for by setting the FL die back from the shell holder it is fiddly. For most their .303 is not their primary rifle but more of a blast from the past and there is an easier option. This involves neck sizing the cases and keeping the pressure down so they don't stretch in the first place.
I used to do a bit of 4P shooting using my .308. After some time doing this the recoil became a bit tiresome for shooting at 100 and 200 metres so I started backing off the load. With the 150 grain Hornady Interlock I initially loaded 40 grains and later 38 grains or AR2206H for around 2,450 and 2,350 fps respectively. Only neck sizing was needed and cases that chambered a little hard came out chambering freely after firing. Primers protruded slightly after firing which told me that the pressures were low enough not to stretch the cases on which necks were annealed at each 3rd load.
Later the first .303 appeared in the safe and 40 grains of AR2209 was paired with the 174 grain Hornady RN at 1,930 fps and later 32 grains of AR2206H for about 2,050 fps. 34 grains of AR2206H with the 150 grain Norma gave 2,050 fps. Only neck sized cases are used.
The rimmed case on the .303 is actually an advantage in that the headspace is set by the rim and not the shoulder so the soft loads do not set the shoulder back as they can in rimless cases.
As far as neck sizing goes the Lee Loader die produces the straightest cases followed closely by the Lee Collet die. The latter does require cases to be annealed frequently. There are more expensive neck dies that work well but are likely overkill on a .303. The cartridge specific neck dies come next and it may be possible to use a .308 FL die to neck size for the .303 if adjusted correctly but best results may be achieved if the depriming, neck sizing and neck expansion are carried out as separate steps.
Happy to answer questions.
GPM.

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That probably explains what ive just been reading.
The way i understand it is its not so much full length sizing in itself thats the problem, but the fact that if your rifle has excessive headspace means the brass can stretch longer and full length sizing will work the brass too much, weakening it early.
So it looks like there is no real way around this with .303 other than fireforming cases to each rifle?

With the heavy loads im using however, it appears I will still be shortening the life even with neck sizing only?
It looks like im going to need a lee collet die for a start, but for now im going to experiment a bit with reloads and see how many loads i can get out of them

I neck sized my 30.06 with a FLS for a few years. Just put a thick washer under the die. Or you can just unscrew the die about 3/4 of a turn.
But created donuts, so eventually i went back to FLSing.

Edit; it's all part of the rabbit hole. Lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Old_School

MY loads are probably considered high pressure, im loading them with AR2209 which is a fairly low pressure powder, but its a near full load with a 174 grain bullet and a load of 46.5 grains to get near 2400fps.




That probably explains what ive just been reading.
The way i understand it is its not so much full length sizing in itself thats the problem, but the fact that if your rifle has excessive headspace means the brass can stretch longer and full length sizing will work the brass too much, weakening it early.
So it looks like there is no real way around this with .303 other than fireforming cases to each rifle?

With the heavy loads im using however, it appears I will still be shortening the life even with neck sizing only?
It looks like im going to need a lee collet die for a start, but for now im going to experiment a bit with reloads and see how many loads i can get out of them

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The question has to be asked. "Why do you need the heavy loads?" You should be able to achieve close to 2,400 fps with the 150 grain and 2,200 fps with the 175 grain projectiles while just neck sizing, assuming a decent barrel. Either will flatten a deer and be fine for short range target.
GPM.

Greetings once more,
If you go down the minimal FL sizing route a piece of kit that will make things easier is the Hornady head space comparator. This clamps on the jaw of your callipers and allows measuring the distance from the base to a point on the shoulder. The .375 barrel seems to work ok with the .303. You can measure the base to shoulder of a fired round so setting the die up is much easier. You will need some clamp or set screw locked die rings as the Lee rubber ring ones will drive you nuts.
GPM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings once more,
If you go down the minimal FL sizing route a piece of kit that will make things easier is the Hornady head space comparator. This clamps on the jaw of your callipers and allows measuring the distance from the base to a point on the shoulder. The .375 barrel seems to work ok with the .303. You can measure the base to shoulder of a fired round so setting the die up is much easier. You will need some clamp or set screw locked die rings as the Lee rubber ring ones will drive you nuts.
GPM.

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100%

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

The question has to be asked. "Why do you need the heavy loads?" You should be able to achieve close to 2,400 fps with the 150 grain and 2,200 fps with the 175 grain projectiles while just neck sizing, assuming a decent barrel. Either will flatten a deer and be fine for short range target.
GPM.

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Ive been mainly trying to load some rounds to the original MK7 spec, means in theory i can use the same loads at the range on targets or for hunting and not need to worry about sighting in for different ammo. Have not compared the hollow point projectiles to compare groupings however, i have a ton of the FMJ type that CAC must have had drilled out the tip and sold as hunting ammo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings once more,
If you go down the minimal FL sizing route a piece of kit that will make things easier is the Hornady head space comparator. This clamps on the jaw of your callipers and allows measuring the distance from the base to a point on the shoulder. The .375 barrel seems to work ok with the .303. You can measure the base to shoulder of a fired round so setting the die up is much easier. You will need some clamp or set screw locked die rings as the Lee rubber ring ones will drive you nuts.
GPM.

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That could be useful, will look into this.

Bit of an update here, a member helped me out and had a go on his press, went through everything from annealing to case trimming, etc.
We are thinking the flat bottom CAC projectiles are part of the problem, they measure .311, but we loaded some HXP projectiles and loaded nice and tight, i cant shift it no matter how hard I try.
the HXP ones are slightly round at the base, my theory is somehow the flat base is grabbing a bit and pushing the neck out more?
Anyone else have experience loading these projectiles? I know a fella who uses them so might hit him up for advice.
I also believe that the forster dies are best for loading these, but would like to hear from others before investing in an expensive die set.

Without re-reading the complete thread -
Anytime I load a flat base projectile (rarely) or cast projectile I flare the neck using a Lyman M Die.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Without re-reading the complete thread -
Anytime I load a flat base projectile (rarely) or cast projectile I flare the neck using a Lyman M Die.

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Is that a neck expander die? I think someone sold one of these here recently.