I've recently scored a lot of IMR 2207 & was wondering if this can be used as a sub powder? It's supposed to be for pistol rounds.
If so has anyone got any info & experience using it for that purpose in a 308?
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I've recently scored a lot of IMR 2207 & was wondering if this can be used as a sub powder? It's supposed to be for pistol rounds.
If so has anyone got any info & experience using it for that purpose in a 308?
At sub velocity the standard barrel twist of the 308 favours 190g projectiles
No, but;
I have used 10grains of TB with 180grain cast as a sub load in 308.
I realise that does not really help :)
Trail boss is generally a better solution in a 308 for subs
The pistol powders can work well with fillers & can be very quiet especially given the amount used
Purpose built monos give far superior terminal performance
Be careful with twist rates
Greetings,
I assume that you mean AR2207 or IMR4198. These powders are very similar with the former made in Australia and the later in Canada. Load data for IMR 4198 with cast lead projectiles can be used for reduced velocity loads but sub sonic may be trickier. A more specific question may be easier to answer.
GPM.
6-7gn of several shotgun/pistol powders will give you around 1000fps with a 200-220gn cast projectile. Nobel 78, Red Dot, AS30N, 800X etc. Someone else might jump in with a specific load. Mine is 6gn of Nobel Shotgun Powder No 78 or 800X. 205gn cast bullet. FWIW.
Hodgden site has subsonic loads using h4895. (2206h) ar2207 is faster so,, it can be done. Start high and go down.
2207 is generally used in smaller rifle cartridges, I use it in my 222. I think its also good in 7.62x39? Not sure how it would go with subsonics, I think its the wrong type of powder for loads that reduced? I use shotgun/pistol powder (AS50n, AP50n, Unique, Herco) for much reduced loads.
Just had a thought - did you mean IMR 4227?
If its 4227, I think its a bit slow for subsonic loads, but ok for reduced loads... from Lyman cast bullet handbook for 308:
Attachment 275638
Yes, ADI 2207 not IMR.
Thanks people. I'll have to do a bit of experimenting I think.
Phil.
Ok...I got to ask it... What do you want subs to do??? Unless your going to go whole hog ,rangefind,twiddle n fiddle with lots of range time...in my opinion the subs are a sub fifty yards propersition. They HAVE to hit in exactly the right place or they are terrible. Great fun. Great for quiet finishing shots.great for small game up close BUT a mild load is nearly as quiet but kills a hell of a lot quicker and more humainly.
No fillers is my recommendation having been strongly advised not to go there - can be an arse with suppressors and also behave a bit odd in some circumstances. Also a lot of people talked about drilling out flashholes, same thing apparently not required. I've never done either of those after receiving the advice and nothing unusual has happened.
The load I'm using is 9.5gr TrailBoss with the Hornady 175gr sub-X pill, CCI standard large rifle primers and Winchester range salvage brass (no fillers). It works. If I recall about 1060-1080FPS.
Other option which is readily available is the Tokoroa cast pill - the guy that makes those is on here or Trademe (reminds me I must get around to ordering some of those to play with).
I have enough TrailBoss to last me through (it goes a long way) but I also have a can of Red Dot which is the other recommended option in a lot of places being a similar speed to TrailBoss and almost as bulky. The load I've been given with Red Dot is 6.5gr for the 175gr Sub-X pill but haven't tried it yet - the main advice is start high to ensure that the pill actually leaves the barrel and without the suppressor on to ensure it is stable and then reduce for speed. For 150gr and thereabouts .308win I wouldn't go over the 13gr of Red Dot (The Load - google that one for reduced and cast load history with Red Dot) as after that you can apparently get weird spiking pressures with not much warning (Ok, Ok, Ok, Boom).
Never used 2207 - it's quite a bit slower than either TB or Red Dot but slightly faster than AR2206H so it in theory should be OK. My question would be how it behaves with very reduced loads and whether it is consistent enough. I'd have a good look at the 2206H reduced and sub load data and the standard 2206H data and compare with 2207 and see what comes of that if you are keen to use it. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of Red Dot around at the moment (TrailBoss is not in production at the mo) and for me Red Dot is a better choice than something you have to experiment with.
The point with subs is if you consider it more of an arrow than a bullet and aim accordingly you will be OK with them. You need to stick it where it will stop the animal, there are no close enough and it will be OK shots where the animal runs and bleeds out in 30m. If you miss vital parts with subs the animal will run for a long time, they just don't hit with the power and hydraulic shock of full power rounds. However if you have noise shy animals or for close range finishing shots with minimal disturbance they and ideal.
When the stars align :
Attachment 275646
Yep, that pretty much tallies with my results with the Sub-X - accuracy surprised me. But it was about 6-7 inch down and about 1-2 right at 50m when shooting to the supersonic zero set for 100m (so shooting the same zero as the 150gr supersonic full factory ammo at 100m, but using the sub loads at 50m if that makes sense).
What I worked out is with the SFP scope at 6x power, the 400yd line is my 50m zero for subs not altering the supersonic zero. Handy.
I get Sierra 165s grouping nicely at 25/50/75&100 but hitting the target sideways at 100. I haven’t checked at 125.
@Micky Duck
I am reluctant to use subs on bigger beasts, I know they can work but the margin for error is reduced. But they do come in handy for the smaller pests when one is confronted. I did shoot a possum with a full noise 30-30 HP in my youth, it was fairly spectacular, but I didn’t see any other animals for at least 15 minutes after that.
I first used Walker 205gn cast as subs in my old 308 on a large old fallow buck. Have written about it elsewhere on this forum. Shoulder hit at 1000fps give or take, 37m. Dropped him instantly, thought he was dead so waited in position in case a hind followed, 20 min later when I approached he raised his head but couldn't move. So a mercy shot required.
I have since taken the same load after goats..very poor results in semi open scrub...a few hits under 60m that required one or more followups. A couple I'm sure I hit at 80m but never caught up with.
Shot placement is everything. A 4inch group at 50m I decided was sufficient accuracy. Trouble is that not long after 50m the group expands without consistency. Poor goats. Fortunately I had a 223 with me that time and switched. For me with my rifle 50m has become my max range. Basically it's not a lot different from expecting to drop an animal at 50m with a 200gn bullet from a 45acp handgun at high power factor load. Not something I'd care to attempt with such short radius sights and I'm sure it would still kill. But not reliably.
So great for mercy shots close up. Great for close bush hunting. Not enough chop in larger clearing or open spaces on bush fringe.
The CNC machined purpose built subsonic projectiles I have shot in 300 Blk, 308, 450 BM & 510 Wsm will comfortably shoot moa or much better at 100Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhon
Sounds good. And no doubt you have a decent bore. My old 308 has done a little work lol. How well do the subsonic CNC kill at 100m?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg
FWIW:
ADI gives load data for Sub-x in 308 for
trailboss
2219
BM2
2206h
Yes, but I'd use with caution with the velocities they are quoting. I'm running the 175 Sub-X with TrailBoss in a 20" barrel, 9.5gr powder for 1060 thereabouts and ADI is quoting 12.7gr for the same. I suspect what they have listed for TrailBoss is a "safe start load" which will exit every barrel, then download for the velocity you need? I was given a starting load of 12.5gr, no more and then load down for velocity once you have confirmed it is stable - which aligns with ADI's 12.7gr as a max load.Quote:
Originally Posted by STC
I don't know with the other powders, as I have not used them although I have 2206H out there.
I am interested to know if BM8208 could be used in place of BM2 - as it is reported to be more consistent than BM2 and virtually the same burn rate but different grain size and colouring etc etc. And, more to the point I have a half can of it out there...
FWIW when I had the 7.62x39 and played with reduced loads,determined by sound alone.i got down to stupidly light powder charges because I was still using the magnum primers I had on hand. It seems they almost worth 2-3? Grains of trailboss. Sure we're fun but frustrated me at around the fifty yards mark. Head shooting was all or nothing,the 223 at full noise oh so much better and more humain.
If:
trailboss
2219
BM2
2206h
AS30
Red dot
800x
All work then AR2207 won't be a problem.
Datapoint:Quote:
Originally Posted by No.3
Im using 10.5 gr of trailboss with 190gr sub-x. Which turns out to be exactly what ADI claim...
24" barrel? Most are using shorter barrels than that, in which case your speed results are higher than ADI's listed data for the same powder charge. This would be in the same line as my results with the 175gr Sub-X pill and the 20" 1-10 twist barrel just not as great a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by STC
Anecdotal evidence from around the traps with this pill and powder combo is that my results are pretty close to typical - some are quoting as low as 8.5gr TrailBoss for the same velocity (but I don't know the full details as per - so they may well be doing something odd or using a slower twist barrel than my 1-10" which can mean the powder charge is a little lighter).
This is why I'm suggesting that the 175gr Sub-X data ADI have put out is a little different than most would experience in actual real world shooting. Not that it is unsafe, just that loading those and expecting subsonic speeds is likely to not be what you get - from my experience I would think that 12.5gr would give me around 1250-1300 fps which is very definitely not subsonic. I started with 10.5gr as ADI did not have that data out at that time, and got about 1180fps which was a nifty crack followed by a transonic ripple or buzz all the way down the range. Not ideal!
Greetings,Quote:
Originally Posted by No.3
My test firing in the .308 showed BM8208 close o the old AR2206 and a little faster than AR2206H.
GPM.
16" barrel (as opposed to the 24 that ADI quote) and 20". 20" being around 50 fps slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by No.3
And yes you are absolutely right that one will need to do "development" i.e. load a few weights and see what velocities they get with whatever powder - primer - rifle combination they are using.
