Thread: Subs in 308

I've recently scored a lot of IMR 2207 & was wondering if this can be used as a sub powder? It's supposed to be for pistol rounds.
If so has anyone got any info & experience using it for that purpose in a 308?

At sub velocity the standard barrel twist of the 308 favours 190g projectiles

No, but;

I have used 10grains of TB with 180grain cast as a sub load in 308.

I realise that does not really help

Trail boss is generally a better solution in a 308 for subs

The pistol powders can work well with fillers & can be very quiet especially given the amount used

Purpose built monos give far superior terminal performance

Be careful with twist rates

Greetings,
I assume that you mean AR2207 or IMR4198. These powders are very similar with the former made in Australia and the later in Canada. Load data for IMR 4198 with cast lead projectiles can be used for reduced velocity loads but sub sonic may be trickier. A more specific question may be easier to answer.
GPM.

6-7gn of several shotgun/pistol powders will give you around 1000fps with a 200-220gn cast projectile. Nobel 78, Red Dot, AS30N, 800X etc. Someone else might jump in with a specific load. Mine is 6gn of Nobel Shotgun Powder No 78 or 800X. 205gn cast bullet. FWIW.

Hodgden site has subsonic loads using h4895. (2206h) ar2207 is faster so,, it can be done. Start high and go down.

If its 4227, I think its a bit slow for subsonic loads, but ok for reduced loads... from Lyman cast bullet handbook for 308:

2207 is generally used in smaller rifle cartridges, I use it in my 222. I think its also good in 7.62x39? Not sure how it would go with subsonics, I think its the wrong type of powder for loads that reduced? I use shotgun/pistol powder (AS50n, AP50n, Unique, Herco) for much reduced loads.

Just had a thought - did you mean IMR 4227?

Yes, ADI 2207 not IMR.
Thanks people. I'll have to do a bit of experimenting I think.
Phil.

Ok...I got to ask it... What do you want subs to do??? Unless your going to go whole hog ,rangefind,twiddle n fiddle with lots of range time...in my opinion the subs are a sub fifty yards propersition. They HAVE to hit in exactly the right place or they are terrible. Great fun. Great for quiet finishing shots.great for small game up close BUT a mild load is nearly as quiet but kills a hell of a lot quicker and more humainly.

No fillers is my recommendation having been strongly advised not to go there - can be an arse with suppressors and also behave a bit odd in some circumstances. Also a lot of people talked about drilling out flashholes, same thing apparently not required. I've never done either of those after receiving the advice and nothing unusual has happened.

The load I'm using is 9.5gr TrailBoss with the Hornady 175gr sub-X pill, CCI standard large rifle primers and Winchester range salvage brass (no fillers). It works. If I recall about 1060-1080FPS.

Other option which is readily available is the Tokoroa cast pill - the guy that makes those is on here or Trademe (reminds me I must get around to ordering some of those to play with).

I have enough TrailBoss to last me through (it goes a long way) but I also have a can of Red Dot which is the other recommended option in a lot of places being a similar speed to TrailBoss and almost as bulky. The load I've been given with Red Dot is 6.5gr for the 175gr Sub-X pill but haven't tried it yet - the main advice is start high to ensure that the pill actually leaves the barrel and without the suppressor on to ensure it is stable and then reduce for speed. For 150gr and thereabouts .308win I wouldn't go over the 13gr of Red Dot (The Load - google that one for reduced and cast load history with Red Dot) as after that you can apparently get weird spiking pressures with not much warning (Ok, Ok, Ok, Boom).

Never used 2207 - it's quite a bit slower than either TB or Red Dot but slightly faster than AR2206H so it in theory should be OK. My question would be how it behaves with very reduced loads and whether it is consistent enough. I'd have a good look at the 2206H reduced and sub load data and the standard 2206H data and compare with 2207 and see what comes of that if you are keen to use it. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of Red Dot around at the moment (TrailBoss is not in production at the mo) and for me Red Dot is a better choice than something you have to experiment with.

The point with subs is if you consider it more of an arrow than a bullet and aim accordingly you will be OK with them. You need to stick it where it will stop the animal, there are no close enough and it will be OK shots where the animal runs and bleeds out in 30m. If you miss vital parts with subs the animal will run for a long time, they just don't hit with the power and hydraulic shock of full power rounds. However if you have noise shy animals or for close range finishing shots with minimal disturbance they and ideal.

When the stars align :

Yep, that pretty much tallies with my results with the Sub-X - accuracy surprised me. But it was about 6-7 inch down and about 1-2 right at 50m when shooting to the supersonic zero set for 100m (so shooting the same zero as the 150gr supersonic full factory ammo at 100m, but using the sub loads at 50m if that makes sense).

What I worked out is with the SFP scope at 6x power, the 400yd line is my 50m zero for subs not altering the supersonic zero. Handy.

I get Sierra 165s grouping nicely at 25/50/75&100 but hitting the target sideways at 100. I haven’t checked at 125.
@Micky Duck

I am reluctant to use subs on bigger beasts, I know they can work but the margin for error is reduced. But they do come in handy for the smaller pests when one is confronted. I did shoot a possum with a full noise 30-30 HP in my youth, it was fairly spectacular, but I didn’t see any other animals for at least 15 minutes after that.