Will do. Thanks
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Will do. Thanks
@zimmer had a good watch, very informative. Going to struggle with out an accurate seating die, two calibres on thier way as I speak though. This time I also watched Cortina's video. Should have done that in the first place. @dannyb case lube on the projectile makes a huge difference. Measured jam with 5 different projectiles 3 times each one. Max variation of 3 thou. Pleasantly surprised. As soon as my flash seating dies arrive I'll be into it. Rifle already shoots two loads MOA but I've got two boxes of other projectiles that shoot OK but not brilliantly. I'll try and tune them. Got pleant of 2209. Going to do the load ladder, chrono it, then back them off 20 thou from jam and work backwards. I use 760 with the two winners but I'm sure 2209 will do the job.
@dannyb. Thanks for kicking this off mate. It's a really informative read. As a consequence my whole reloading practise has changed. I was a trial and error, hit and miss guy, because I didn't know any better. Been doing that for roughly 40 years.
Quick background; My main rifle is a M77 Mk1 long action with a Shilen barrel chambered 7 x 57. The magazine well is long enough to allow projectiles at jam length to feed.
I developed a load averaging well under minute of angle using my former method. 150 Nosler BT, 45 grn 760 @ 2550 fps. Good, but could be better. Of note, the lowest ES I could obtain with that combo, varying the load, was 21.
The current component shortage led me to googling and ringing around provincial sports stores. I picked up Accubonds, Corelocts, 140 grn Nos BT's and N204 at old school RRP's. I already had sufficient 2209 and 760.
The next step, obtain a Forster Micrometer Bullet seating die. That done, into action. It took a while, as spare time for me is a rare commodity.
I'll try not to bore with a lengthy diatribe and let the photo's speak. Except to say the ES was obtained by increasing loads by .3 of a grain. The seating depths were in 5 thou increments due to component shortage.
Attachment 205235
The ES was measured using 3 a shot sequence, with a fourth shot to verify if it looked promising. So all ES shown in picture was obtained with a four shot sequence.
Now for the proof of the pudding. Last Monday morning I put the method into practise. Rem Coreloct up first, starting with -5 off jam length.
Attachment 205236
Not bad, as I'd never been able to got the Corloct under minute of angle before. Of interest to me was that the load was 4 grains over ADI's stated maximum with no pressure signs. 2700 fps, quite respectable. Shots in sequence 1 minute apart, a good five minutes between groups. 3 shot groups due to component shortage. Fascinating to watch the pattern develop.
Next up Accubond, same morning.
Attachment 205240
I cheated a bit with this one, trying to save components. I hoped to pick up a tight spot quickly. That's pretty much what happened. Again, fascinating to watch it unfold in front of me.
Now I'm really hanging to try the Nos 140BT. Two really good loads so far.
A quick rider: I'll say so my self, without a hint of modesty, I have a reasonable trigger finger.
Thanks again mate.
I'd say job done with those 140gn ABs now go hunting. Some on here could have a chuckle at my comment.
@Tikka7mm08, that's something else I'm hanging to do
Have you watched Eric's vids on 'reading groups' ?
No, best do that, no doubt will be interesting.
Reviving an old thread of mine as I'm back at it again. This time working up a load for a 30-06 ackley improved
After fire forming with some sako brass and cheap 155gn fmj, I loaded a charge ladder starting at 59gn working up to 60.5gn with 178gn eldm's seated over adi 2209.
I actually did a lower charge weight ladder starting at 57gn but I cocked up my jam measurement and it was a disaster, still the velocity of the lower charge ladder gave me confidence to start higher (without the projectile jammed hard into the lands :psychotic: )
Found a good consistent velocity the higher I went with charge weight, for now I will settle at 60gn which gave an ES of 9fps and a SD of 4 fps which I thought was pretty darn good.
I have since loaded a seating depth ladder to find where the velocity node intersects with accuracy as at the seating depth I used the charge for weight ladder the accuracy was less than stellar at 1.5"-2"
My seating depth ladder starts 3 thou shorter than my charge depth ladder and continues dropping 3 thou each increment for 10 loads all at the same charge weight. I'm sure I will find accuracy somewhere I my seating depth ladder if not I'll look at doing a bedding job on it, as the rifle currently sits in a b & c stock with alloy inlet chasdis but the barrel although free floated is not bedded around the taper.
So far so good, if I can get the 60gn load down to sub moa at 2940-2950ish fps with 178 eldm's it'll be an absolute slayer and I'll be stoked
Charge ladder veloicties
Attachment 212355
Seating depth ladder ready to shoot tomorrow all going well
Attachment 212356
Interesting afternoon at the range shot my seating depth ladder and have nailed a pretty sweet load.
So yesterday the load that had the best ES and SD shot a less than stellar 1.8" 3 shot group, the ES was 9fps and the SD 4fps which I thought was pretty damn good and warranted further investigation even if the 1.8" 3 shot group at 100y from the charge ladder did leave me feeling a little concerned.
I put the group out of my head and set about loading a seating depth ladder 10 steps, 3 rounds loaded at each step, 3 thou difference seating depth between steps so 30thou difference from closest to jam to furthest from jam.
I went back to the range and set about getting things set up, today I decided not to run the magnetospeed on the barrel as I wanted to make 100% sure there were no external influences that could affect the harmonics, especially as the barrel is an extremely light weight profile and fluted as well.
Immediately right from the first load (which was 3 thou shorter than the charge weight ladder groups) the groups were better, they sort of fluctuated a little then at 12 thou into my seating depth ladder they tightened right up to .8" then 15 thou .5" 18 thou saw the group back out to .7" as did the next 3 groups after that slowly increasing in size again but all sub moa.
Then at 27 thou it shot a .2" clover leaf group, the last group after that was only 2 rounds as I ran out of prepped brass but it opened back out up to 1.1".
So in conclusion I will settle on the 15 thou group that was .5" and some might ask why not the .2" seating depth and my reason is the .5" group was right in the middle of a big stable node of sub moa group producing seating depths from 12thou-27thou the last group in that node was the .2" group before it opened right out to 1.1" just 3 thou deeper so my logic is that the .2" group is right on the very edge of that accuracy node where as the .5" group is closer to my jam and has good grouping over 15 thou of tolerance so is right in the middle of that accuracy node.
Whilst this may come accross as tedious and OCD it definitely works, the other issue is that the factory trigger on this rifle is a heavy bitch and will need sorting I suspect it will be easier to shoot good groups once I've had the trigger lightened.
All in all happy to have a nice accurate load sorted. I will load up 6 or 9 confirmation loads to krono for velocity validation as I didn't krono the seating depth ladder.
End result should see 178gn eldm's at a velocity in excess of 2950fps.
I'll post pics of the charge ladder and seating ladder later this evening
Weatherby mk v ultralight in 30-06 ackley improved, barrel is a factory unfired 30-06 springfield that has been reamed to ackley improved.
I have swapped the trigger out with a lighter one, so hopefully I can get back to the range on Monday and verify. At suggestion ftom a mate I have loaded 5 rounds at my chosen seating depth and 5 rounds at 6 thou further into into the node just to double check.
I have also loaded up 5 extra rounds of each for krono purposes only once the load is chosen
Nice, you won’t be disappointed with the decision to go Ackley Improved. :thumbsup:
I'm trying but there appears to be an issue uploading pics since the forum upgrade overnight :oh noes: @DAF when i try yo upload pics i get a pop up saying "nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz says .jpeg file upload failed"
ask and you shall recieve :D
Attachment 212503
here is the seating depth ladder.....after tallking to my mate Jock he reckons I should also try the seating depth at .644 again as well, so I have loaded up 5 at .650 and 5 at .644 his logic was that the .644 was right in the middle of the node as opposed to the .650 which is actually closer to the front of the node.
either way which ever shoots better will be the depth settled on, I have also swapped out the trigger for one that has been fettled by a gunsmith to remove that challenge.
Attachment 212504
looks great..a few 180grn round nose for walking in and another couple of cast lead loads with charge of trail boss up thier bum for finishing anything off or the young lasses to shoot a cheeky hare with and you will be sorted LOL...
Hard to go past that 0.638 grp. :thumbsup:
The paint job of the stock looks great too.
yes at a glance, but it's right on the edge of the node, the very next seating depth just 3 thou deeper opened out to about 1.2" so I'd be more inclined to go somewhere in the middle of that node which is what I've loaded my 2 lots of confirmation loads to 1 lot at .650 and 1 lot .644 I have also swapped out the trigger for one that has been lightened and polished.
the stock finish is a matte gray over textured paint, with gold and white marble effect finsh. pretty happy with it, I also fitted a new limbasver, javelin flush cup and free floated the barrel it's come up great :cool:
Some very thorough testing there @dannyb that fits pretty well with the berger seating depth recommendations, I'm pretty sure theirs goes 10 thou jam, 20 thou jump, 50 thou jump, and so on in 30 thou increments. Was your node right around 15 or 20 thou jump?
Update....so i took the 2 loads i thought would be the goods to the range loaded 10x for each load which gave me 5 for a group validation and 5 for krono data.
It didn't go well both loads had opened up shooting 1.8" and 1.5" groups and then even worse with the magnetospeed hanging off the muzzle.
Attachment 212772
Attachment 212773
Not ideal and a little frustrating :psychotic:
The es and sd were still really stable so I revisited the seating depth that shot the very best group 2.638" loaded up 6 rounds 3 for group validation and 3 for krono data
Both shot extremely well again, even with the krono fitted, both 3 shot groups were under .4" I did note a slight poi shoft with the krono fitted but still a great 3 shot group.
So this load has now shot 3 sub .4" groups including the seating depth ladder. I'm gonna call that confirmed good.
The velocity was a little lower but no slouch at 2928fps avg with an sd of 9fps and an es of 18fps
Magnetospeed attached slight poi shift right
Attachment 212774
No magnetospeed
Attachment 212775
Original seating depth ladder group.
Attachment 212776
......time to load some ammo :cool:
good to see performance with :thumbsup:the 0.638 depth confirmed
Depending on what sort of accuracy goal you are after? I'd recommend shooting at least 4 shot groups, preferably 5 shots to gather your initial data, 3 shot groups can be fools gold, has been for me anyway sometimes.
I'll load 5 of each load, if after 3 clearly shit, stop on that load. If grouping in nice pattern or touching keep shooting string so you end up with 5 of potential good load verified.
You can then just pull the ones easily you don't use when get home with a cam-lock puller, recharge with load and seating depth. I have a wee RCBS partner press($190) take to range now for seating depth, can just load up a box at longest seating depth want or jam, then adjust at range to whatever plan is? Once start looking good just push more down to that depth, saves a lot of trips or seating heaps you might pull later.
man if I had a dollar for everytime Ive heard that one...3 shots just prove rifle goes bag etc..... what a crock of poohs.
if you really want,if you really really want... to proove a load is CONSISTANT... and insist on a 5-10 shot group,shoot it 1-2 shots at a time over a month...same target,different days and conditions...but in reality Danny now has a load HE IS CONFIDENT IN...and that right there my friends is 99% of the battle won.
He KNOWS it will poke hole in animals vitals if he does his bit right....END OF LOAD DEVELOPMENT...
write down load recipe on wall above loading bench with vivid felt pen and stop wasting component and go fill the freezer.
I have literally shot this load 9 x now, same poi , 2 of the 3 shot groups were shot 1 immediately after the other just different targets.
The only poi shift has been when i chucked the magnetospeed on the end of the barrel. You know what ? I've never needed 3 shots to drop a deer but if this rifle can stack the first 3 rounds like that every time I'm happy as, in reality what i shot today the 2 x 3 shot groups 1 after the other at different targets would be akin to a 6 shot 1/2 moa group even with the poi shift from adding the magnetospeed. But hey I'm not here to prove myself to anyone. MD your right I've gone through enough components.....I'm not blowing through anymore just to convince anyone on here. The next shots through this rifle will be at deer.
Just a reminder.....this shows were i started and where I ended up...
Attachment 212804
I'm not shooting PRS or bench at 1000y guys it's an ultralight hunting rifle, either way I'm more than confident it'll put all 5 rounds in the mag where I tell it, as long as I do my bit right
Awesome
Productive afternoon, 50 make deer deader make gun go bang thingies ready to go
Attachment 212827
when you have a spare 10 minutes..... get a blank target...place each of your shot up ones ontop of it in turn and mark your bullet holes onto the blank target...so you will end up with one target with 15-20-25 impacts marked on it...a composite group if you will....
be interesting to see just how "bad' it is......would be indicative (hows that for a wheelbarrow word before 9AM?) of a chuck it together loads preformance .
So an interesting issue cropped up the other day with the Dirty Ackley....I changed from a radial brake to a directional brake due to the radial brake not really doing enough to reduce the recoil on what is a very light rifle (3kg ready to hunt) but decently recoiling cartridge....
I went to the range to double check zero and shot a couple if 3 shot groups, made a slight tweak on the zero, then offered my mate a few shots as he's a bit of a gun slut like me :yaeh am not durnk:
he also shot a couple of really tight groups but commented that the bolt was a bit tight to close when chambering rounds :O_O:
I had not experienced this myself but immediately suspected maybe I had not bumped the shoulder back enough when I full length sized the cases :pissed off:
Well it finally got the better of me so I checked the remaining 40 odd rounds and yup most of them were hard to chamber (I did not force them, stopped if I felt resistance), checked the fired cases for length just to confirm trimming wasn't the issue, it wasn't....out of 40 odd rounds I have 5 left that chambered ok :oh noes: looks like I'll be pulling the lot and full length sizing them then reassembling them.
To double confirm it was the shoulder bump I used a fired case that was also hard to chamber and wound the sizing die down until the case chambered nicely.....which I should've done form the beginning :psychotic:
Guess I know what I'll be doing on my next days off, I'm happy with the load, but will run a couple 3 shot groups through once I have re made the rounds to confirm that all is hunky dory.
I was a little too concerned about over working the brass and didn't wind the sizing die down far enough after fire forming. Due to the forming loads not being very hot they didn't require as much pressure when full length sizing to chamber nicely otherwise I would of noticed when I was doing my charge ladder (in hindsight I should've checked the brass chambered when I resized the charge ladder cases). The charger ladder loads were certainly full power loads explaining why some of the higher load cases weren't bumped back sufficiently. I hope that makes sense.
lesson learnt, hopefully this will help someone else if they come up against the same thing.
If you can get yourself a redding body die, it's possible to run a loaded round through them just to nudge the shoulder a touch.
They might not make one for something so unusual though.
thanks for the suggestion, would be great if it was a thing but I doubt it and even if it is a thing finding one in NZ would be little to no chance....I'm resigned to pulling the loads I have done and learning from my lesson.....first time fire forming brass....it's been a process :thumbsup:
Just go out in a paddock and run them all through the chamber a couple of times, that will cure them if close to chambering. Fire any that are too tight.
The donut ring on the neck and a normal load method gives a much more consistent fire form case than a soft load.
nah, I'll just pull them and re size them, not wasting 40 primers, projectiles and the powder when I can easily fix it and reuse all the components.
to clarify the fire forming loads weren't soft they were just middle of the road loads from ADI load data, where as the charge ladder was from middle of the road to just above book max.
How do you know 40 wont chamber and eject and not just one or two ? I run all my Ackley reloads through the chamber to check em and some batches get a few tight ones that resize themselves when chambered. At home you can bang the bolt down with your palm - something you dont want to do in the field.
40 was the amount of loaded rounds I checked in the rifle chamber at home (after my mate made the comment about some being hard to chamber) where I felt resistance before the bolt was all the way closed, I'm confident they would all chamber just they require a bit of effort to do so (as stated my mate chambered and shot them successfully), Are you saying that I can use the chamber to bump the shoulder back ? Some where not as bad as others but I would have thought that forcing the bolt down to bump the shoulder back would still not result in a round that chambers smoothly (ie:with just the smallest amount of resistance).
I still feel this is not a good idea as bumping the shoulder back after seating the projectile would move the projectile in relation to the lands ?
Anyone else got any thoughts on this before I pull 40 rounds and go through all the effort of salvaging the powder, depriming, resizing, re primimg, recharging and then re seating ?
Na your buggered if you can't get a body bump die.
Get a set of redding comp shell holders as the only accurate way to set your cartridge headspace when sizing.
There is a great podcast from the redding vice president explaining why.
They are not cheap but neither is wrecking your brass.
Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk
I agree by chambering round a couple of times you will move case size by the infintisimal amount needed and it will go in fine afterwards..we did this with the troublesome loads in the BLR .