Thread: Wilcats and Pressure

Originally Posted by R93

I think you just confirmed the point he was trying too make Bob.

Well four pages of fanny flapping and how come I got it in two sentances?????

Originally Posted by baldbob

Well four pages of fanny flapping and how come I got it in two sentances?????

Cos I started with 'I'll make it simple'

Did you read the rest though as I feel I said the same thing 10 times lol

The problem you have spanners is you have no idea of the failure point of the action. If you don't trust the strain gauge why don't you buy a pressure transducer from oehler and use that to determine you actual pressure, then go back to barrel, action and brass mfgs and ask them if it is within its designed safe operating range.

Yes putting a transducer in all but destroys the barrel for future use but, if you want to push the limits and then sell to customers then sacrificing a barrel should not be an issue.

How many other commercial action manufacturers have published the failure points for their actions? Or barrel manufacturers for that matter?

Is pressure signs in brass not evident before damage to actions and barrels?

Originally Posted by L.R

The problem you have spanners is you have no idea of the failure point of the action. If you don't trust the strain gauge why don't you buy a pressure transducer from oehler and use that to determine you actual pressure, then go back to barrel, action and brass mfgs and ask them if it is within its designed safe operating range.

Yes putting a transducer in all but destroys the barrel for future use but, if you want to push the limits and then sell to customers then sacrificing a barrel should not be an issue.

Steel > Brass - simple mechanics
I'd put my left nut on the fact the there hasnt been and action failure ever without brass failure - and if you are well off brass failure then you are well off action
Its like wrapping an egg in bubble wrap - if the egg survives you're not going to nuke the wrap, you'e going to nuke he egg first.

I;ve looked for an Oehler for my own interest, cant buy one as havnt made them for years - maybe Mr Oehler has canned the strain gauges due to the downfalls - after all - he admits to most of them.
As far as using them to determine an actual pressure - useless as there is no calibration - ever talked to barrel, action and brass mfgs and asked them what their PMAX is? I'd say no, and you'd get a reply of no. You have brass/barrel and you do what you will with them. Hell - most main firearms mfg dont even proof barrels, guaranteed any blank is not done.

Universal receiver for pressure testing -yes - I'm in negotiations at the moment for one actually - before I lay down that cash, I'm going to be sure I can ACTUALLY have it shipped to me - State dept pending.

Not in Kirby's case in the link.

I think it would be the duty of an action manufacturer to give a safe working pressure of their action.

Well actually he had increasing bolt lift problems... as a result of increasing headspace... that would be pressure and brass wouldn't it

well..... which came first....??

brass signs or headspace

No the bolt lift problems came from the lug setback, so the brass signs came as a result of the action damage.

I don't know of anybody who has asked. I'll call Barnard tomorrow and ask them.

Originally Posted by L.R

Not in Kirby's case in the link.

I think it would be the duty of an action manufacturer to give a safe working pressure of their action.

So who does?

This whole thing seems a bit chicken or egg to me...

I think that applying an arbitary pressure across all actions/barrels/calibres as being a safe do not exceed could be sensible for the great unwashed... but clearly it is not necessarily relevant to individual rifles. How do you deal with 96 mausers vs Barnards for example...

Even though hard strong brass in a strong action may be more light-switch moving from safe to not, the principles are still the same. I would suggest backing off a little more than other well documented options in this case once first pressure signs are reached.

I have a hard job believing that cases fired 5 times and not having required resizing, contain loads that are causing damage to actions in spite of whatever pressure that they are running...

I also believe that it is unlikely that a whole new class of firearm performance has been unearthed as a result of totally original thought, requiring secrecy and "IP" protection the like of the "you copied my silencer design" dramas of the recent past...

If you want to be an original thinker and still benefit from it, not much is gained by trying to lock it down and protect it. You're far better off link your brand with the product and get it out there so that whatever it is becomes always linked with you.... the microsoft saturation model

Don't know anyone with a dakota proprietory calibre......

I am not saying anyone is doing damage to their actions here, I'm just asking how you know they can handle these higher pressures safely.

I think it's one of those situations where you should do as you feel is safe. If that's 80k for you that's fine. It's not for me until someone can prove that all the components are safe at that pressure and have a good safety margin remaining.

Originally Posted by L.R

I am not saying anyone is doing damage to their actions here, I'm just asking how you know they can handle these higher pressures safely.

I think it's one of those situations where you should do as you feel is safe. If that's 80k for you that's fine. It's not for me until someone can prove that all the components are safe at that pressure and have a good safety margin remaining.

And thats the whole point of this thread.. AGAIN
Its not a matter of 'feeling; whats safe, its about getting the most out of a new cartridge with no standard info
Who, what, why and when to stop?

Damn near Ford v Holden...

I wouldn't have a clue what pressures I run my rifles at. Most are sorted at 2 grains less than first signs of pressure on new brass. (I don't load more than 55grains of capacity at the moment) Most of my loads exceed listed maximums from reloading manual and supposedly max safe loads. My GS custom rounds exceed by quite a margin without pressure signs. Why is that approach not sufficient for any workup?

Will a 70K psi figure released from somebody's strain gauge mean 70K.... or it could be 85 or 55 in reality?

If I blow up one action in testing to determine failure point, on what basis can I use that information to realistically establish the safe working load of other actions produced by the same manufacturer... whats the probability of my sample of 1 reflecting the average population all all other production for that action from that manufacturer...?

Some actions are known to be stronger than others.... how have we established that in the past....?? By load development in the action... whats changed? The only thing you don't know with a new cartridge is the starting point, but that can be worked out.... after that it all gets really similar?

Build your own safety margin in......

Load up the highest pressure load you can think of put in your gun tie a string to your trigger stand back a bit and if it fire it off, if your gun blows up its too high and your gun cant handle that, then get a a new gun and try it again but lower the pressure how ever you do that(different powder amounts? idk) then try it again, if gun blows up then try again.

Originally Posted by Toby

Load up the highest pressure load you can think of put in your gun tie a string to your trigger stand back a bit and if it fire it off, if your gun blows up its too high and your gun cant handle that, then get a a new gun and try it again but lower the pressure how ever you do that(different powder amounts? idk) then try it again, if gun blows up then try again.

Yeah.. - not the most scientific way of goign about....