thermal for hunting light shy rabbits and hares ?

g'day fellas,
I do a fair bit of pest control on a couple of local farms mostly consisting of hares, rabbits and the odd possum, feral cat and pigeon.
Most of my pest work is hares and rabbits, and generally I spotlight them from my truck with my 17hmr, now this is a great setup and we do well with it and can take up to 35-40 hares in 4ish hours.
What I have come to notice is that some hares bolt at the first sign of the spot light and some will just try and flatten themselves out.
I generally don't bother chasing the bolters as there are plenty around and I figure I can pick them off when they decide not to be so flighty.
A little while ago I borrowed a pulsar xq38 (I think) thermal for some very light shy rabbits and it was ideal but at over $4k it was a little more than I was willing to commit for just using on rabbits and hares.

What I am getting to in a round about way is....has anyone on here tried some of the cheaper thermals like the Leupold LTO, guide IR501 nano 25mm and Pulsar axion key for this kind of pest control ?
I would still be using the scope mounted maxtoch to light them up and dispatch them once in range, my logic being that it should be easier to get in range without spooking them by long periods scanning with the spotlight and then only light them up long enough to dispatch them.

Are any of these "cheaper" thermals ok for this kind of use ? mostly in paddocks out to maybe 300 yards
some of these units can be had for under $1000 which is certainly do able and I could possibly stretch to the Axion Key if it would do the job.
Please note I have zero intention to use these for finding deer, we can find them easily enough during the day where we hunt, I am only asking in regards to finding hares and rabbits without scanning with my spotlight.
Would be nice to trial a couple of these units for myself, so if you have any of the above mentioned units and would like to come and shoot some hares let me know, or if you have had experience doing this kind of shooting with them I would like to hear your thoughts ?
thanks and hot barrels :thumbsup:

Have you tried the red light? The Pard SA has good reviews on the night vision forum UK , well priced
KH

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Originally Posted by Kiwi-Hunter

Have you tried the red light? The Pard SA has good reviews on the night vision forum UK , well priced
KH

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no, I guess I could try a red filter on my maxtoch.....amazing the things you ponder on night shift :D

still interested to hear peoples experiences with these entry level thermals

I have played with leopould unit, after using better units it was disappointing. but if you just wanted to be able to find a hare in a paddock before flipping on spotlight it MAY be worth it- I personally went back to red filter (and talked to land owners about educating other hunters about light discipline to avoid training animals to avoid light) as the performance was not ideal.

If there is ever any way to justify buying a good thermal unit for work Ill be doing it.

The Pard 007 unit that attaches to your scope seems to work well from the people I've seen report on it, very popular in the UK.

About 1k max I think.

The Pard SA units look very good, but not necessarily what I would call cheap. Around US $2500, so by the time you have landed it in NZ you would be looking at around $5k

I've been using a Pard NV008 which definitely allows you to get close to rabbits that were previously the bolters when a light hit them. Its high magnification and resulting narrow field of view is not ideal for using in areas that are not wide open. A Pard NV007 which is a clip-on attachment to a regular scope might have been a better option, allowing for a 1-10 power scope to be used with it's resulting wide field of view.

Thermal pulsar monoculars great for finding studs,hot water pipes positions in houses and where the heat is in a house.

I know a couple of guys who use thermal, laser and rifle torch combo. One drives the ute wearing the thermal on a head strap. Ute lights turned off. When driver sees a rabbit he flicks on the thermal's laser pointer so that the shooter knows where it is. Shooter then gets into steady position, often across the bonnet, roughly aims then flicks on the rifle mounted torch. Job done.

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Originally Posted by dannyb

no, I guess I could try a red filter on my maxtoch.....amazing the things you ponder on night shift :D

still interested to hear peoples experiences with these entry level thermals

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Those filters make a huge diff - especially on Hare - so I imagine Rabbit be same

Just be aware that you are going to lose a lot of light output with a red filter. If you have some sort of mega light sabre torch, it might be OK, but a red LED torch is better.

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Originally Posted by MB

Just be aware that you are going to lose a lot of light output with a red filter. If you have some sort of mega light sabre torch, it might be OK, but a red LED torch is better.

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I have a maxtoch 2x it's pretty bright but yeah I imagine it would loose a heap of output.

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Originally Posted by dannyb

I have a maxtoch 2x it's pretty bright but yeah I imagine it would loose a heap of output.

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Measure up the external on the torch bell, camera lens red filter, length of insulation tape... job done

Works for kiwi spotting, enough grunt to scan area and then drop the level when watching up close. Used the celophane / filter plastic.... it gets a bit warm....

Earlier comments on NV might be a better direction than thermal given the cost limits. They can be dirt cheap these days and solve the "rabbits see the light and bolt" issue, though you don't get the heat signature helping find them like with thermal. It's not a direct answer to the cheap thermal question but it does address the problem.

You've also got the benefit that you can mount a cheap digital IR camera and screen to the back of your scope without needing to resight or have a gun that's limited to night shooting only without resighting with different optics. Digital IR is power hungry but cheap and can run in daylight as well as dark with an IR light source. If you're willing to learn a bit about electronics or modify things you can do a a lot of neat stuff. A lot of the rat shooters go this route - they're on a tight budget so have found cheap options for hunting relatively intelligent quick learning animals.

You can get torches in short wave IR suited for your night vision system, anywhere from 750nm to 950nm that are invisible to rabbits, deer, and us, but light the paddock up like it's day to the IR system.

Used a handheld Seek thermal unit and it was fine for finding rabbits - could even see their droppings from 20-30m away. Downside is that you're walking around in the dark ruining your night vision staring at a bright screen and basically spotlighting yourself. Ended up using my right eye for the thermal unit and scope and left for walking in the dark which isn't ideal, but was also nice being able to ID things without having to point the whole rifle at it to see it through the thermal like you end up having to do with a rifle mounted thermal unit.

For red light the red LED's make a big difference in output like MB says. I started with red tape over a light, then red filters, then eventually just went to red LED when clearing a big farm of rats... went from struggling for enough light to being well lit. The really bright red LED does seem to at least be a bit noticed, but seems like it's more confusing than actually noticed, so as long as you don't get them used to the idea that the odd almost visible light means humans, you're fine. In that case, switching to NIR doesn't give them any hints about what's going on.

anyone specifically had any experience with the guide IR510 nano n2 25mm ?
seems to have slightly better specs than the axion key xm30 like a bigger higher definition viewing screen and a few extra features like wifi streaming for pics and videos etc
The down side to me at least seems to be that it only has an internal battery so you are limited to the run time of that battery where as the pulsar you can buy extra batteries and just swap them out......granted 5 hours is a long time staring down the thermal so possibly not an issue

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Originally Posted by dannyb

anyone specifically had any experience with the guide IR510 nano n2 25mm ?

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Since no one else has replied, I ended up buying the Guide IR510x 25mm from Marine Deals for a pretty good price. Happy with performance.

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Originally Posted by MB

Since no one else has replied, I ended up buying the Guide IR510x 25mm from Marine Deals for a pretty good price. Happy with performance.

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Funily enough I just bought the guide ir510 50mm ex demo for a good price too.
Can't wait to get out and test it.

I trialed it side by side with several other units and this appeared to give the best performance for $ value, very similar spec to the base line pulsar helion but $1000 cheaper. The difference was so small I could not justify the extra $1000.
I can also see why the axion key has been a bit of a flop the performance difference is like chalk and cheese

A sack of pindone would be the cheapest option

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Originally Posted by Bill999

A sack of pindone would be the cheapest option

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maybe as a drastic measure but then there is the issue of secondary poisoning of anything that eats the dead rabbits like native birds of prey (or at least so I'm told) happy to be corrected :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by dannyb

maybe as a drastic measure but then there is the issue of secondary poisoning of anything that eats the dead rabbits like native birds of prey (or at least so I'm told) happy to be corrected :thumbsup:

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No secondary poisoning - unless they eat the stomach contents that was just been eaten by the target species

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

No secondary poisoning - unless they eat the stomach contents that was just been eaten by the target species

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ok I was told otherwise but that's good to know, let's face it shooting them is much more satisfying :thumbsup: but I can understand if numbers are out of control how responsible poisoning would be considered a viable and attractive option

Plenty of studies out there supporting secondary poisoning with pindone.
Luck is on the side of the hawks and falcons, as they are not as susceptible to the poison as rabbits.

A friend has just pulled up all of the studies, as her neighbors are getting pindone laced carrot baits dropped next to her horse paddocks, and she wanted to know the risks.

Hares dont eat Pindone.

Poison in no fun!

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Originally Posted by quentin

Plenty of studies out there supporting secondary poisoning with pindone.
Luck is on the side of the hawks and falcons, as they are not as susceptible to the poison as rabbits.

A friend has just pulled up all of the studies, as her neighbors are getting pindone laced carrot baits dropped next to her horse paddocks, and she wanted to know the risks.

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What do "you" determine as "secondary poisoning" ??
Horse eating bait laid for Rabbits is not

I class (IMHO) "secondary poisoning" as when a dog or cat eats the dead Rabbit
Aka -1080 - that does "secondary poisoning" and dog/cat will die

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Originally Posted by headcase

Hares dont eat Pindone.

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Prob cause they not still long enough to eat it :-)
I did wonder that and not surprised
Seems to work on the Rabbits - neighbor cleaned his immediate area up -

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

What do "you" determine as "secondary poisoning" ??
Horse eating bait laid for Rabbits is not

I class (IMHO) "secondary poisoning" as when a dog or cat eats the dead Rabbit
Aka -1080 - that does "secondary poisoning" and dog/cat will die

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The horses eating the baits will not be secondary poisoning obviously, but she still got all of the studies to determine what the risk was to her rather expensive livestock. Those studies went into detail on how the poisons worked, secondary poisoning risks, and how they compared to 1080.

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Originally Posted by quentin

The horses eating the baits will not be secondary poisoning obviously, but she still got all of the studies to determine what the risk was to her rather expensive livestock. Those studies went into detail on how the poisons worked, secondary poisoning risks, and how they compared to 1080.

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if you have links to the info be interested to read - I am always accepting to be proven wrong - its how we learn or perhaps "used to" learn :-)

Here's the one she sent me with the most detail.
https://shooting-nz.s3.ap-southeast-...%20%281%29.pdf

And a summary one from it's use in Australia.
Pindone Rabbit-Baiting: Secondary Poisoning of Wildlife

And there were a few more printed out too.

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Originally Posted by quentin

Here's the one she sent me with the most detail.
https://shooting-nz.s3.ap-southeast-...%20%281%29.pdf

And a summary one from it's use in Australia.
Pindone Rabbit-Baiting: Secondary Poisoning of Wildlife

And there were a few more printed out too.

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Interesting reading
I do find having 1080 and Pindone in the same report somewhat surprising
Again I may be misled - but those 2 poisons are so different in all aspects

This conclusion in this report is similar to my belief - yes a wild hungry scavenging Dog - could eventually circum to Pindone poison
But a domestic animal or farmed animal - I very much doubt
But the poison is not only confined to the gut as I thought - liver and other fattie tissue zones also - but I doubt in amounts that would worry again "domestic" stock/animals

This said in LandCare report - I will stick with

"The estimated high secondary risk to dogs from feeding on gut contents, liver and/or fat of
pindone poisoned rabbits is supported by research showing mortality of dogs fed over
multiple days on the carcasses that had died of pindone poisoning.
While we found no confirmed instances of pindone poisoning in New Zealand dogs, there are numerous reports of anticoagulant poisoning and
successful veterinary treatment in domestic dogs where clinical differentiation of the
causative anticoagulant compound (including rodenticides) and confirmation of the exposure
source was not undertaken. Thus instances of secondary pindone poisoning in dogs,
particularly in farm dogs with access to rabbit carcasses, cannot be discounted"

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

Interesting reading
I do find having 1080 and Pindone in the same report somewhat surprising
Again I may be misled - but those 2 poisons are so different in all aspects

This conclusion in this report is similar to my belief - yes a wild hungry scavenging Dog - could eventually circum to Pindone poison
But a domestic animal or farmed animal - I very much doubt
But the poison is not only confined to the gut as I thought - liver and other fattie tissue zones also - but I doubt in amounts that would worry again "domestic" stock/animals

This said in LandCare report - I will stick with

"The estimated high secondary risk to dogs from feeding on gut contents, liver and/or fat of
pindone poisoned rabbits is supported by research showing mortality of dogs fed over
multiple days on the carcasses that had died of pindone poisoning.
While we found no confirmed instances of pindone poisoning in New Zealand dogs, there are numerous reports of anticoagulant poisoning and
successful veterinary treatment in domestic dogs where clinical differentiation of the
causative anticoagulant compound (including rodenticides) and confirmation of the exposure
source was not undertaken. Thus instances of secondary pindone poisoning in dogs,
particularly in farm dogs with access to rabbit carcasses, cannot be discounted"

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You forgot to highlight the finding.

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Originally Posted by quentin

You forgot to highlight the finding.

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That's not a "finding" its an assumption/suspicion
Bit like a USA Democrat on collisions/Quid pro quo's etc - all conjecture and spin

I use this Pindone/Pest-off weekly
Have done for many years.
I have dogs
Surrounded by pet owners

Think I once killed an old skinny hungry wild Sow
Cant even kill the bloody Weka's which are a confounded nuisance

''Seems to work on Rabbits''

Your right. It works well on rabbits if applied in enough quantity, multiple sowings at the right moments, meaning when its realy dry in summer or mid winter.. when everything has dried off. They love it even without a prefeed because it is naturally sweet. Hares are very fussy creatures that are realy choosy in what they eat. Only the finest of feed is good enough. Only lead can sucessfully poisen Hares.

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Originally Posted by headcase

''Seems to work on Rabbits''

Your right. It works well on rabbits if applied in enough quantity, multiple sowings at the right moments, meaning when its realy dry in summer or mid winter.. when everything has dried off. They love it even without a prefeed because it is naturally sweet. Hares are very fussy creatures that are realy choosy in what they eat. Only the finest of feed is good enough. Only lead can sucessfully poisen Hares.

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@headcase
So how many feeds do you reckon a Rabbit needs ?
I use Pindone/Pestoff on Possums and made mistake back a few years of putting it out as soon as gone - but better to leave at least 5 nights then drop the drug again ( I sue Romark bait stations)
Also with Rabbit - you turn a turf and lay on top ? and approx how much ?

The rabbit pindone pellets need about 20 in total. The theory is that 2 feeds over a few days of 20 pellets is better than on big feed. This as been tested and a longer feeding time produced a better kill rate. Because the rabbit does not get sick immediately it will not be posien shy after a first feed and likley to keep feeding as long as the pellets are available. I would generally spread up to a minimum of 3 times. About 4 day intervals. Very good results can be obtained if every rabbit gets its fill, so dont be too tight on the amounts. Im told the 1st feed will be scoffed by the bucks and bigger rabbits so the second feed should be generous. I just gauge how much Im going to put out depending on how much is left from the previous feed. Thats a good indicator. Fresh pellets are eaten more readily than pellets that have started to ''blow'' ..disintegrate.

just put the pellets out in set locations where you see them in a small pile/area
tie your dog up
pick up the dead rabbits
pick up the uneaten pellets

it is just a tool to be used when its the best option
boo poison is just retarded