Thread: 223 on deer

Originally Posted by mawzer308

Yes I'm running 80gr eldm now too but funnily enough, the 73gr eldm have been outstanding as well.

That's cool to hear the 73 grain eldm are going well. Better than the 75's you recon? Any structural differences that you are aware of? I initially used the 75's as I could achieve a much higher muzzle velocity in my .223 than I could with the 80's. Perhaps the 75's were travelling too fast on those closer shots. The two deer mentioned above were sika so not big bodied deer (in case anyone was curious). I shoot the 80gr out of a 22-250 as well and despite it going faster than the 75's did in the 223 I've had no problems so far even at very close ranges. It seems odd that only 5 grains increase in bullet weight would make such a difference....

Originally Posted by Calikiwi

That's cool to hear the 73 grain eldm are going well. Better than the 75's you recon? Any structural differences that you are aware of? I initially used the 75's as I could achieve a much higher muzzle velocity in my .223 than I could with the 80's. Perhaps the 75's were travelling too fast on those closer shots. The two deer mentioned above were sika so not big bodied deer (in case anyone was curious). I shoot the 80gr out of a 22-250 as well and despite it going faster than the 75's did in the 223 I've had no problems so far even at very close ranges. It seems odd that only 5 grains increase in bullet weight would make such a difference....

Only real difference is the long ogive of the 75gr really, everything else to my knowledge is the same. One thing to take note of is the sample size for example 1 failure out of 40 odd is pretty good, just an anomaly really. The only reason I went to 73gr, then 80gr was projectile availability then higher BC and accuracy with the 80gr.

Also thought it's important to document less than optimal performance, as people become so enamored with a calibre and aren't willing to admit shortcomings etc.

Originally Posted by mawzer308

Only real difference is the long ogive of the 75gr really, everything else to my knowledge is the same. One thing to take note of is the sample size for example 1 failure out of 40 odd is pretty good, just an anomaly really. The only reason I went to 73gr, then 80gr was projectile availability then higher BC and accuracy with the 80gr.

Also thought it's important to document less than optimal performance, as people become so enamored with a calibre and aren't willing to admit shortcomings etc.

And this is where we need to be acutely aware of our biases (either way). Classic scenario plays out like this:

Hunter shoots a stag with a ‘marginal cartridge’ and it requires a tracking job and a bit of faffing around to retrieve. Hunters mate says- ‘See, I told you (insert name of cartridge) wasn’t powerful enough for deer.

Hunters mate sometime after shoots a deer with his loundenboomer cannon and also requires a tracking job and faffing about to retrieve. Hunters mate says - ‘Man I told you these deer were armour plated!’

Humans are extraordinarily susceptible to confirmation bias. The best way to defeat this is by studying the facts, from breaking the shot through to completion of an autopsy on the animal. As @Tahr shows in many of his posts, if the right .223 bullet gets put in the right place, the job is done.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

And this is where we need to be acutely aware of our biases (either way). Classic scenario plays out like this:

Hunter shoots a stag with a ‘marginal cartridge’ and it requires a tracking job and a bit of faffing around to retrieve. Hunters mate says- ‘See, I told you (insert name of cartridge) wasn’t powerful enough for deer.

Hunters mate sometime after shoots a deer with his loundenboomer cannon and also requires a tracking job and faffing about to retrieve. Hunters mate says - ‘Man I told you these deer were armour plated!’

Humans are extraordinarily susceptible to confirmation bias. The best way to defeat this is by studying the facts, from breaking the shot through to completion of an autopsy on the animal. As @Tahr shows in many of his posts, if the right .223 bullet gets put in the right place, the job is done.

Two deer over the weekend.
#1 a solid Fallow spiker at 260 yds . Hit low in the chest a bit far forward with .257R and 100 grn Barnes. Dog flushed it and it ran down hill 50 yards and she bailed it. Lots of life left inspite of a big hole, and I had to shoot it again. Thank you Bella.

#2 a smaller Fallow at 219 yds with the 77TMK. High shoulder shot. Bang flop.

It's about where you hit 'em.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Two deer over the weekend.
#1 a solid Fallow spiker at 260 yds . Hit low in the chest a bit far forward with .257R and 100 grn Barnes. Dog flushed it and it ran down hill 50 yards and she bailed it. Lots of life left inspite of a big hole, and I had to shoot it again. Thank you Bella.

#2 a smaller Fallow at 219 yds with the 77TMK. High shoulder shot. Bang flop.

It's about where you hit 'em.

Perfect timing for a question/advice.
A mate is looking to buy his son his first hunting rifle.
He’s a fit 18 year old + 6’ and won’t have recoil fear, within reason.
He’s not a hunter (yet) been out after rabbits & goats once or twice.
Will probably do a lot on his own and with inexperienced mates.
Will not be hand loading.
Will be mostly hunting SI, Canterbury & central Otago.

They’ve asked me for advice, they’re thinking .223 - possibly read these 141 pages of commentary.

Would you start a young fella as described on a .223, or perhaps look for a bit more margin for error?

Originally Posted by Lauries Hut

Perfect timing for a question/advice.
A mate is looking to buy his son his first hunting rifle.
He’s a fit 18 year old + 6’ and won’t have recoil fear, within reason.
He’s not a hunter (yet) been out after rabbits & goats once or twice.
Will probably do a lot on his own and with inexperienced mates.
Will not be hand loading.
Will be mostly hunting SI, Canterbury & central Otago.

They’ve asked me for advice, they’re thinking .223 - possibly read these 141 pages of commentary.

Would you start a young fella as described on a .223, or perhaps look for a bit more margin for error?

.243 would be great. Then he can down scale or up scale later depending on his taste. Although I'm a fan, .223 is not something you just pick up with a box of any old ammo and go hunting with. Takes a bit of thought.

Originally Posted by Tahr

.243 would be great. Then he can down scale or up scale later depending on his taste. Although I'm a fan, .223 is not something you just pick up with a box of any old ammo and go hunting with. Takes a bit of thought.

Thanks Thar, I had similar thoughts. 243 - 308.
As you all know, there are so many variables to getting in a position to take a shot at an animal, and then making a clean kill.
I think a little margin for error due to inexperience-excitement wouldn’t hurt.

Cheers M

Originally Posted by Tahr

.243 would be great. Then he can down scale or up scale later depending on his taste. Although I'm a fan, .223 is not something you just pick up with a box of any old ammo and go hunting with. Takes a bit of thought.

This sums it up perfectly. The .223 is fantastic in the right hands but it is not a great choice for a newby.

Originally Posted by Lauries Hut

Perfect timing for a question/advice.
A mate is looking to buy his son his first hunting rifle.
He’s a fit 18 year old + 6’ and won’t have recoil fear, within reason.
He’s not a hunter (yet) been out after rabbits & goats once or twice.
Will probably do a lot on his own and with inexperienced mates.
Will not be hand loading.
Will be mostly hunting SI, Canterbury & central Otago.

They’ve asked me for advice, they’re thinking .223 - possibly read these 141 pages of commentary.

Would you start a young fella as described on a .223, or perhaps look for a bit more margin for error?

Size is relative. Ask a friend[s] to lend a 243 and 223 to see what he likes best. Did this with my mates son. Took a shine to the 223. He kills lotsa reds and fallow. He is aged 15.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

And this is where we need to be acutely aware of our biases (either way). Classic scenario plays out like this:

Hunter shoots a stag with a ‘marginal cartridge’ and it requires a tracking job and a bit of faffing around to retrieve. Hunters mate says- ‘See, I told you (insert name of cartridge) wasn’t powerful enough for deer.

Hunters mate sometime after shoots a deer with his loundenboomer cannon and also requires a tracking job and faffing about to retrieve. Hunters mate says - ‘Man I told you these deer were armour plated!’

Humans are extraordinarily susceptible to confirmation bias. The best way to defeat this is by studying the facts, from breaking the shot through to completion of an autopsy on the animal. As @Tahr shows in many of his posts, if the right .223 bullet gets put in the right place, the job is done.

I did this with a specific bullet from one of my 260s. Swore the bullet off because of performance. After 2 years I looked back at what happened and I couldn’t blame bullet performance. I pulled my shot a few inches too low because I rushed it badly. Bullet hit the humerus bone and penetration lacked to the lower lungs/heart causing a rodeo. I put that buck down quickly with 4 more shots in the ribs as fast as I could from 10 yards away when I caught up to him. He had gone onto the neighbors land and I didn’t want to do any tracking so if it was moving he was getting a bullet until he quit. I’ve since gone back to the bullet and no problems with it because I haven’t shot anything in a bad spot. Funny how that works.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Bella is going great.bailing a woundie...Tilly would be proud mate,her tail will be going flat out watching that.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

And this is where we need to be acutely aware of our biases (either way). Classic scenario plays out like this:

Hunter shoots a stag with a ‘marginal cartridge’ and it requires a tracking job and a bit of faffing around to retrieve. Hunters mate says- ‘See, I told you (insert name of cartridge) wasn’t powerful enough for deer.

Hunters mate sometime after shoots a deer with his loundenboomer cannon and also requires a tracking job and faffing about to retrieve. Hunters mate says - ‘Man I told you these deer were armour plated!’

Humans are extraordinarily susceptible to confirmation bias. The best way to defeat this is by studying the facts, from breaking the shot through to completion of an autopsy on the animal. As @Tahr shows in many of his posts, if the right .223 bullet gets put in the right place, the job is done.

To be picky, it's 224 caliber projectile. 222 projectiles are 224 cal too, 223 is name for a certain caliber. Carry on chaps, your up to page 141 and going strong.

Originally Posted by SmokeyJason

To be picky, it's 224 caliber projectile. 222 projectiles are 224 cal too, 223 is name for a certain caliber. Carry on chaps, your up to page 141 and going strong.

Cartridge...if you want to be picky. But it seem nearly everyone uses the word 'caliber' when they talk about individual chamberings as opposed to bore diameter.