Balloted/permitted hunting blocks

Had a robust discussion with a few locals here about the merits or lack thereof of balloted or permitted hunting blocks and was wondering what the consensus is among those on here.
We live against the blue mountains which are balloted year round and are known of course for the blue mountains fallow herd.
The population in general is healthy and self sustaining, in fact sometimes the numbers do swell and some culling happens particularly on private land surrounding the blocks. There are some good bucks getting about but again most of these are on the edge country on private land which brings me to my gripe with the ballot system.
Whilst I can only speculate that a ballot is a fair way of giving everyone a crack at hunting the area I can't help but think it's actually detrimental to the quality of the bucks that come off the public land. There is a core group of local-ish hunters that put in for the ballots every month but there is also an equally as large or probably larger group of people that put in for the ballot that will travel from afar to hunt their block if successful. All too often on the changeover days you will see utes in Tapanui with young bucks on the back that have been shot well before their prime and I can't help but think the "exclusivity" of obtaining a block leads to a mentality of having to shoot anything you see, especially if you have put in for a block month after month and/or have traveled a fair distance to get there. This is especially prevalent about this time of year when I think a lot of hunters have antlers on the brain and are hoping to get something on the ground before the rut.
I have been down here for a few years now and you just don't hear about decent mature bucks coming off the public estate, it's not that the genes aren't there, it can only be that they get cleaned up before having a chance to reach maturity.
I can't help but think that a "free for all" system would probably lead to an initial rush of hunters before settling down due to the lack of exclusivity or pressure to take an animal because you don't know when you'll get a crack again. The same is seen in another local block, Leithen bush, where access is through a permit system controlled by doc, this block is known for Reds and again the surrounding land holds some very good genetics but the permit system coupled with the NZDA hut and their own ballot system seems to lead to this urgency by all who end up hunting there to shoot whatever they can and it's very seldom you will see a mature stag in the block.
What say you all?

If you dont "take it" someone else will seems to have become a common attitude now and especially prevalent with fisheries.

We moved to Nelson in very late 90's and you could easily find cockles, etc on and around the rocks along Tahuna beach. I would struggle to even find a little one of anything now as the rocks are scoured rather often.

Sign of the times and not necessarily a good one.

Balloted hunting works, we have it here last few years for upland game hunting. But you will find same people are often the users because they are keen hunters.
I often leave birds unshot as for me I would rather see them around and I prefer watching the dog find and flush them. The actual shooting I could take or leave.

Fiordland is probably the only exception to the "If I dont shoot it, someone else will" mentality. Look how long its taken to get that message through and even then, the trigger gets pulled on animals that probably should have walked.
Molesworth is an area I'm familiar with. The balloted blocks get plenty of pressure as you can see on You tube, and the stags that get shot are often smaller heads with lighter timber these days. Problem is that during the roar, a lot of hunters see bone as a reward for their efforts, both financial and physical, and you can't really blame them for that.
Having said that, I wouldn't shoot a 10 pointer, but to a young hunter starting out, it'd be an awesome trophy.
Thats just the way it is but in the case of Molesworth, there certainly aren't the big heavy 16 and 18 pointers coming out of there now

It doesn’t matter if it’s blue mountains fallow, Stuart island whitetail, chamois or tahr. Some hunters will hunt what they see for meat, the other 10% will maybe look for trophy size and pass up animals. The only way this will change is if you run places like the blue mountains like Fiordland where the hunters know they are going in to search for a trophy not to fill the freezer.

I’m pretty sure the people you see with young bucks on the back of the ute would just as easily have a couple of does or spikers if they had have seen them first.

Couldn’t agree more.
I travel from Dunnos to hunt the Blueies, whenever I’m lucky enough to draw a ballot.
Often stay at the deerstalkers at Beaumont and despair at the number of young bucks with decent timber that may have ended up growing out to a good head hanging in the game safe.

I only hunt for meat and only ever shoot Does, my choice, and I have no issues with folk who want a nice rack for the wall. I suspect what others have said, that the difficulty in getting a block means that folk are likely to bowl over whatever they see.

I reckon it has got worse since they shut the mountain through the week

Better system you guys have than Woodhill. Bugger all pressure most of the year so deer numbers are massive and quality is shit. They should be increasing number of ballots or increasing animal take for ballot winners

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same old debate that has raged for decades now..... and the points Ryan S has bought up are the same ones always bought out..... but you forgot the private land on edges who spotlight and thermal the shit out of animals,and the crowd who do same and dont even recover any meat.... its eating my cow tucker so I will shoot the fcuker..type mentality.
the big heads come off older animals who have good feed and live long enough..THAT BIT HAS NEVER CHANGED.
if you have ballot system...make it hinds only other than during a set period and FFS remove ANY take of stags/bucks untill say 2 weeks into rut/roar so the odd big fella that has actually made it to mature status has a chance to do the funky chicken and pass on the genetics,instead of randy spiker being only male left alive in immediate area. this shooting in velvet and early stripping heads thing has never sat well with me.....it WAS frowned apon at one stage but now even the main magazines are publishing articles about it,much to my horror. I have absolutely no problem with targeting post rut stags n bucks they have done thier bit by then.
Im yet to shoot a decent fallow buck.... have taken a few spikers now and one spindly wee 6 taken at long for me range in trying conditions before it vacated area out of range...one day I might manage a good buck,but as a meat hunter,its first animal seen that cops bullet..when have had the choice its hind that gets it,easier to carry LOL.

Yeah look somewhat similiar shenanigans here in Australia on any of the herds really.... if i dont, someone else will. and the fella above mentioned that come the Rut,Roar or the hunt of their winter, ANY antler is what Widens ones eyes.......... as said for those newer hunters, this is the Reward! Antlers and a new Instagram photo in my new Hunting Camos and famous boot brand boots with my Aweosme new gun....

but also the bigger fact is its New Zealand and its Australia....... These are the two biggest countries in the world who see deer as Pest an Pest only, with a Kill em all mentality stemming from the 40s?????? generations and generations, Hunters perhaps initially, 20s,30s but soon enough comes "easier" ways to get said Animal-- the hunt Fades.


Today in my opinion "the hunt" is the single most fantasized description as to Why people say hunt......

Fiord Wap is the only way to visually see what Beating the Drum an Floggin Dead horses can acheieve...... whilst its progressing Slowly, those who dont kill one in there, take it out on the next local Redskin.... aka, mentality, Cycle continues........ soooo much potential for EVERYONE to have a 40 incher in their life time... if thats what they want, and fullest freezers forever, but we would have to Start thinking about Others before we pulled triggers.......

until we are paying $600+ for 1 head, or $200? for 1 "tag" non antlered, or something along Tagged lines, Its a shot show from the get go.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Im yet to shoot a decent fallow buck.... have taken a few spikers now and one spindly wee 6 taken at long for me range in trying conditions before it vacated area out of range...one day I might manage a good buck,but as a meat hunter,its first animal seen that cops bullet..when have had the choice its hind that gets it,easier to carry LOL.

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This is a prime example guys.

i kill spikes but ive never shot a trophy buck............

Go figure.


edit to elaborate me opinion on it.

So not just this guy but speaking from the deers point of view......... 50/50 chance its born male or female- within a year or two it has things on its head or not.
early on its "just a dumb spiker"............ the one that stands around while you ride up on 4 wheeler.... or the one standing on the track walking in or out...... the one that You say "easy meat, im a meat hunter"...........

that same buck, if survives "dumb spiker" period , start to grow antlers , what alot dont realise is the growing stages of fallow antlers- they simply do not palm out in 2 years, an have dinner plate palms in 3.... for a good few years this "trophy buck" is still a babey--- its antler form 3, 6 an then many more points, all the while growing in length before starting to put time into Palming out...
splits occur in antlers at these times, it is REALLY difficult to tell whats cleft and whats growing main veins pumping blood into those areas of the antlers whilst growing velvet...

they are Vocal as is the Red stag and many cant tell a lion roar from a spiker roar................. but they always sound "good".

98% of hunters i know ONLY hunt the rut for 'other species' like red/fallow . why- they give away their location. simple.


this young buck, now 'splitty mongrel' is learnin, he needs to actually see a dozen hunters in his life before he gets Large to "write stories for magazines" with, as the size of the antlers trumps the photography skills every single time...........

splits in antlers of large propertion to the animals body size is amazing , to kill deer because its not perfect palmed is BS. look at some of the Wapiti, iconic heads.... labelled "Hybrid", "Cross" or "non typical".... some of the most Amazing formations of Bone ive ever seen... not to mention those Once in a Lifetime malformed FREAKS that are always most prized an talked about ...


anyway, whatever

ah yes but Im not targeting trophy bucks.... I know what your saying.....Im the problem..fuck I better give up hunting and let all the deer get 1080ed instead.
If people like myself dont hunt for freezer in order to leave all them male animals that MIGHT make the grade one day...the countryside WILL either get over run or bombed with poison......nope there is only those 3 options or paid culling be it on foot or from whirlybird.
the farmer shooting animals on crop..yip it will reduce population.....and that crop will forever suck animals out of nearby hunting blocks..always has and always will.

we shouldnt have to pay tag fee for hinds...no way at all will that help..and here we would see the apartied...oops I mean cogoverance/Maori land rights get thrown in as reason that in lots of areas for certain people the rules dont apply....
its a weird place NZ...and getting weirder each year.
go and shoot what you like...agree if want to see big trophy bucks leave male animlas alone...BUT keep population in check.
recently I saw close to 50 game animals in a days hunt...MOST were on private land so untouchable..... big breeding area that drip feeds nearby public land.... sort of the same,sort of opposite what OP is talking about.

and you conviniently didnt read my last line.....hind is have choice of two animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bos

Fiordland is probably the only exception to the "If I dont shoot it, someone else will" mentality. Look how long its taken to get that message through and even then, the trigger gets pulled on animals that probably should have walked.
Molesworth is an area I'm familiar with. The balloted blocks get plenty of pressure as you can see on You tube, and the stags that get shot are often smaller heads with lighter timber these days. Problem is that during the roar, a lot of hunters see bone as a reward for their efforts, both financial and physical, and you can't really blame them for that.
Having said that, I wouldn't shoot a 10 pointer, but to a young hunter starting out, it'd be an awesome trophy.
Thats just the way it is but in the case of Molesworth, there certainly aren't the big heavy 16 and 18 pointers coming out of there now

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The cause of the absence of the big heavy 16 and 18 pointers in Molesworth is because of the horrendous kill from the 1st 1080 in there and Facebook/Youtube/Instagram wannabes who can't tell the difference between a 4/5 year old and 8/9 year old stag.

I never added to my comment above to be 100% truthful, I only am interested in hunting for meat, trophy hunting has never appealed to me ( but I can appreciate it appeals to others) so for me choosing which deer to shoot generally works like this........................

Spiker, yearling,young stag or hind and close enough to a vehicle to get the whole animal out................its down. If its a big walk and can only recover some of the meat ie back steaks & back legs only then I might take a picture but not take the shot

If its got big antlers then generally I am not interested as you cant eat that bit