Decades of 1080….before and after

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Originally Posted by Moutere

How would you put and individual or crew into the Karamea bend, mobilise and sustain the operation for $65/ Ha?

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What is the poison drop frequency / return ?

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

What is the poison drop frequency / return ?

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Wouldn’t have a clue, hazard a guess at 4 or five years?

Amusing ay. I can recall DoC and AHB Assurring the ERMA review of 1080 (2007) that frequency would ot need to exceed once in 7 years. They spun it big time.

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Where are the sanctuaries ( with good expanding bird populations ) that get aerial poisoning all the time ?

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MH, continued aerial poisoning is not really how the sanctuary model works.

They tend to do initial aerial drops to eradicate pest species within a fenced off area, and then go into a "maintenance mode" where the emphasis is more on tracking tunnels, regular sweeps with mustelid detection dogs and monitoring of the bird population to identify any incursions. Obviously a lot of work on the sidelines to maintain and check fences etc.

Some of the older sanctuaries (Karori) had fences where the mesh design allowed juvenile mice to enter. In those sanctuaries there is a yearly ground based bait operation (Brodifacoum ?) to deal with mice.

I am not aware of any of the fenced sanctuaries that continue with aerial poisoning once the initial pest knock-down is done.

The expanding bird population at places like Zealandia, Pukaha, Maungatauteri and Orokonui is well documented.

We need to release more Lions and Tigers. That would take care of the pesty Deer. (and poachers) when the deer are gone the rats and possums would be next.

Cougars could be interesting :)

We have cougars already @Woody, in some of the pubs usually is where they hide at night....very predatory too! ;)

Set them loose bro ! Just train em not to eat carrots.

Having been involved with the Nelson sanctuary since my wife was their first ever paid employee, they did an initial drop of Brodificum as soon as possible after the fence was finished and then a second drop a few weeks later. It should never need doing again as if they have a breach of the monitored fence they rapidly initiate a trapping and monitoring plan in the localised area.

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Originally Posted by ebf

MH, continued aerial poisoning is not really how the sanctuary model works.

They tend to do initial aerial drops to eradicate pest species within a fenced off area, and then go into a "maintenance mode" where the emphasis is more on tracking tunnels, regular sweeps with mustelid detection dogs and monitoring of the bird population to identify any incursions. Obviously a lot of work on the sidelines to maintain and check fences etc.

Some of the older sanctuaries (Karori) had fences where the mesh design allowed juvenile mice to enter. In those sanctuaries there is a yearly ground based bait operation (Brodifacoum ?) to deal with mice.

I am not aware of any of the fenced sanctuaries that continue with aerial poisoning once the initial pest knock-down is done.

The expanding bird population at places like Zealandia, Pukaha, Maungatauteri and Orokonui is well documented.

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I have nothing but admiration for the fenced sanctuaries and no criticism at all. I think we are discussing the continued poisoning drops over open bush areas.

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack

Having been involved with the Nelson sanctuary since my wife was their first ever paid employee, they did an initial drop of Brodificum as soon as possible after the fence was finished and then a second drop a few weeks later. It should never need doing again as if they have a breach of the monitored fence they rapidly initiate a trapping and monitoring plan in the localised area.

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That was kind of my point earlier, they get a far heavier initial and follow up dose at their inception, with no obvious long term negative effects.
Also with a far more persistent toxins than sodium fluoroacetate.

just thought would pass on some tips about rat trapping gleaned from many years of work on them - A young lady did a thesis on what was the best prefeed lure for rats so it was no 1) peanut butter 2) white chocolate buttons 3) Marzipan icing way down the list were what one might think such as cheese and bacon - but prefeeding was very important - very cautious feeders - little taste first - then again and again until caution over and gobble - incidentally mice never get past the cautious taste regime that's why so hard to poison - most people go wrong with putting out a heap of bait and thinking yup rats gone - no little bit little bit little bit and once strong feeding then wham -good luck

I've been using cahe traps about the place and once aged a bit they catch rsts well with peanut butter bait. I usually smear a very thin trail into the cage as well, as enticement. I have also caught several birds especially thrushes and waxeyes in the cage traps and easily release them unharmed.

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack

Having been involved with the Nelson sanctuary since my wife was their first ever paid employee, they did an initial drop of Brodificum as soon as possible after the fence was finished and then a second drop a few weeks later. It should never need doing again as if they have a breach of the monitored fence they rapidly initiate a trapping and monitoring plan in the localised area.

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I dont think that Brodi is airdropped anymore ? Been a few problems:
The impacts of brodifacoum-poisoning operations
on populations of non-target species that might have
eaten baits have been monitored in several studies.
Three indigenous bird species (western weka,
Stewart Island weka, and pukeko) have been severely reduced in poisoned areas. For example, the
entire population of western weka on Tawhitinui
Island was exterminated by consumption of Talon®
50WB intended for ship rats, which they obtained
by reaching into bait stations, by eating baits dropped
by rats, and by eating dead or dying rats (Taylor
1984). About 80-90% of the Stewart Island weka on

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack

Having been involved with the Nelson sanctuary since my wife was their first ever paid employee, they did an initial drop of Brodificum as soon as possible after the fence was finished and then a second drop a few weeks later. It should never need doing again as if they have a breach of the monitored fence they rapidly initiate a trapping and monitoring plan in the localised area.

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I dont think that Brodi is airdropped anymore ? Been a few problems:
"The impacts of brodifacoum-poisoning operations
on populations of non-target species that might have
eaten baits have been monitored in several studies.
Three indigenous bird species (western weka,
Stewart Island weka, and pukeko) have been severely reduced in poisoned areas. For example, the
entire population of western weka on Tawhitinui
Island was exterminated by consumption of Talon®
50WB intended for ship rats, which they obtained
by reaching into bait stations, by eating baits dropped
by rats, and by eating dead or dying rats (Taylor
1984). About 80-90% of the Stewart Island weka on etc "

Yes, Brodifacoum was used and aerially applied for the Brook Sanctuary.
As have most other of the offshore predator free islands.

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Originally Posted by Copelli

So from what you're saying the 1080 has been (very) effective against possums, but not against deer, goats and pigs. But isn't this what we hunters want? - i.e. poison drops NOT wiping out deer populations etc? So, has 1080 in fact been the the Bogey Man we all love to hate?

I'm confused.

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Very area, season, density dependent as seen by the molesworth study seeing 90+% kill rate in deer and even pretty bloody high with deer repellant.

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Originally Posted by Stocky

Very area, season, density dependent as seen by the molesworth study seeing 90+% kill rate in deer and even pretty bloody high with deer repellant.

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From OSPRI to me... 14/09/21

I am writing to update you on our TBfree aerial operations at Molesworth & Muller Stations this winter.
OSPRI’s TBfree programme is continuously reviewing operational effectiveness and seeking to reduce environmental impacts and we have completed trialling of aerial low sow baiting and deer repellent over approximately 70,000 total hectares at Bush Gully, Tarndale, Saxton and Severn blocks.
From recent findings of possum control trials undertaken by Manaaki Whenua Landcare Research, we have learned 100% of radio collared possums across all treatment areas were eradicated within 5 days of the aerial 1080 operation. The possum control work was timed to coincide with the start of winter to enable quicker detoxification of aerial 1080 baits.
This approach has proved to be successful and will support our long-term goal of reducing possum numbers to sustainable levels so that the cycle of wildlife TB infection in cattle herds at Molesworth will be broken.
Manaaki Whenua Landcare Research undertook deer repellent trials to investigate how OSPRI can minimise impacts on feral deer and reduce mortality rates following aerial pest control operations. Orillion bait incorporated with deer repellent (Prodeer) was spread across the entire treatment area and the results show that it has performed well in the Molesworth high country environment.

SUMMARY OF RESULTS:
· Possum kill: Possum control efficacy was high under all three baiting treatments. 100% collared possum mortality is reported to have happened within 5 days of the aerial operation commencing.
· Deer by-kill: In the Bush Gully & Tarndale blocks (standard 2kg/ha broadcast) 39 radio collared deer were confirmed present in the block at the time of the aerial operation. Of the 39, 2 deer died on the day of the aerial operation, indicating an estimated incidental by-kill of 5.1%
Researchers also observed 358 non-collared deer within the treatment area, 351 were alive, 7 dead.

So by-kill of deer is either 90+% or 5% ...

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Originally Posted by Moutere

Exactly. Money talks.
The deers wars came and went. Now deer numbers steadily increase without the same magnitude of pressure from private enterprise as cost, compliance and complexity increase and markets change with the passage of time.

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The markets for venison still exist for one example - however they have been severely constrained due to large areas where animals cannot be taken for consumption due to the risk of residual levels of poison detecable in the animal products. Any shipment heading overseas needs to be at zero detectable, or the entire shipment is canned which couold run many tens of containers. Financial suicide to risk it... I know of a few outfits that could start up export tomorrow if not for the risk - this is the same as recently found with 1080 detectable residues in certain honey products.

Poisoning is a solution, that is true but the answer I don't think is solely poisoning and solely 'uncontrolled' air dropping as the broadcast method. Applying the bait by station, logging/documenting and either disposing or recovering of carcasses, and recovery of unused baits as well as funding a research regime for testing and establishing levels of residual poisons across the feral populations would go a long way towards allowing a commercial control mechanism to restart. Against that - you have a lot of potential for spatial conflict on increasing numbers of people wanting to utilise a shrinking allocation for resource (this is the same problem with commercial/recreational fisheries in a nutshell).

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Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

just thought would pass on some tips about rat trapping gleaned from many years of work on them - A young lady did a thesis on what was the best prefeed lure for rats so it was no 1) peanut butter 2) white chocolate buttons 3) Marzipan icing way down the list were what one might think such as cheese and bacon - but prefeeding was very important - very cautious feeders - little taste first - then again and again until caution over and gobble - incidentally mice never get past the cautious taste regime that's why so hard to poison - most people go wrong with putting out a heap of bait and thinking yup rats gone - no little bit little bit little bit and once strong feeding then wham -good luck

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Intersting - the little sods here would not touch peanut butter at all. Never tried icing but did try almonds - no joy from them either. White chocolate buttons I suspect would get non-target bycatch and that would likely end up in an argument with the missus (kids fingers hahaha). No, the go to trap bait for me now is either apple with skin or pear. Maybe avo if I'm short - lesson being I think is feed the little ratty bastards on what they are expecting to find as food and you don't suffer the same level of bait caution.

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Originally Posted by Moutere

Yes, Brodifacoum was used and aerially applied for the Brook Sanctuary.
As have most other of the offshore predator free islands.

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It certainly was aerial dropped there. Not only did my wife work for them but I also knew the managers of the campground right next to the sanctuary at the time

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Originally Posted by No.3

Intersting - the little sods here would not touch peanut butter at all. Never tried icing but did try almonds - no joy from them either. White chocolate buttons I suspect would get non-target bycatch and that would likely end up in an argument with the missus (kids fingers hahaha). No, the go to trap bait for me now is either apple with skin or pear. Maybe avo if I'm short - lesson being I think is feed the little ratty bastards on what they are expecting to find as food and you don't suffer the same level of bait caution.

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They love grain and seeds, that's why flour works so well - visual + smell. One night driving back over Otira I saw at least 30 possums out on the road eating grain that had come off a truck that day. This was at a time when there weren't that many koons about and it was uncommon to see more than two for the whole trip. Flour + icing sugar + lure was always the pre-feed for cyanide lines, I think the flour did the luring and the cinnamon, eucalyptus, aniseed etc etc just made the possumer happy

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Originally Posted by Shamus_

So by-kill of deer is either 90+% or 5% ...

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That’s obtuse. The 5 percent death rate is with repellent. The higher by kill rates are without repellent at max sow rate.

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Originally Posted by No.3

Intersting - the little sods here would not touch peanut butter at all. Never tried icing but did try almonds - no joy from them either. White chocolate buttons I suspect would get non-target bycatch and that would likely end up in an argument with the missus (kids fingers hahaha). No, the go to trap bait for me now is either apple with skin or pear. Maybe avo if I'm short - lesson being I think is feed the little ratty bastards on what they are expecting to find as food and you don't suffer the same level of bait caution.

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M
Sultanas are my go-to bait, sometimes with a smear of peanut butter.

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Originally Posted by No.3

The markets for venison still exist for one example - however they have been severely constrained due to large areas where animals cannot be taken for consumption due to the risk of residual levels of poison detecable in the animal products. Any shipment heading overseas needs to be at zero detectable, or the entire shipment is canned which couold run many tens of containers. Financial suicide to risk it... I know of a few outfits that could start up export tomorrow if not for the risk - this is the same as recently found with 1080 detectable residues in certain honey products.

Poisoning is a solution, that is true but the answer I don't think is solely poisoning and solely 'uncontrolled' air dropping as the broadcast method. Applying the bait by station, logging/documenting and either disposing or recovering of carcasses, and recovery of unused baits as well as funding a research regime for testing and establishing levels of residual poisons across the feral populations would go a long way towards allowing a commercial control mechanism to restart. Against that - you have a lot of potential for spatial conflict on increasing numbers of people wanting to utilise a shrinking allocation for resource (this is the same problem with commercial/recreational fisheries in a nutshell).

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My comparison to the wild venison market was that even with big pressure and big private enterprise the deer endured.
Possums and rats are no different and I would also challenge anecdotal evidence that possums ever declined significantly due to the fur market.

I do however agree that aerial poison is only a tool that one day needs to give way to other maintained control methods. I am genuinely heartened be the inroads being made in the Perth Valley for example.
I am not pro, nor against. Maybe indifferent to a necessary tool.

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Originally Posted by Moutere

My comparison to the wild venison market was that even with big pressure and big private enterprise the deer endured.
Possums and rats are no different and I would also challenge anecdotal evidence that possums ever declined significantly due to the fur market.

I do however agree that aerial poison is only a tool that one day needs to give way to other maintained control methods. I am genuinely heartened be the inroads being made in the Perth Valley for example.
I am not pro, nor against. Maybe indifferent to a necessary tool.

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What do you believe was the maximum possum population total in NZ ?

Only needs to be 'controlled' sufficiently to allow native populations to flourish though, remembering that a level of browse is desirable to ensure regen and spread of certain species' seeds. 'Uncontrolled' populations of deer (or to put it the other way deer populations controlled by the available levels of food) are insanely damaging to bush and prevent a lot of flora replacement from growing through. Possum, rat, cat, and mustelid have the potential to be more damaging on native bird as especially cats and mustelids don't have other options for food when birds and eggs run out...

Conversely 'uncontrolled control' leads to issues with bykill, species damage and non-tracked effects (invertebrates, amphibians, bats, aquatic) so there has to be an acceptable level of where we say that's it we've cracked it.

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

What do you believe was the maximum possum population total in NZ ?

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Anecdotally?

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Originally Posted by Moutere

Anecdotally?

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From your previous :'Possums and rats are no different and I would also challenge anecdotal evidence that possums ever declined significantly due to the fur market'.

We need a base number to work from

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

From your previous :'Possums and rats are no different and I would also challenge anecdotal evidence that possums ever declined significantly due to the fur market'.

We need a base number to work from

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No, you need a number it seems.

Bit like the numbers of sheep quoted in NZ - a very well educated, scientifically generated wild arsed guess!

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Originally Posted by Moutere

No, you need a number it seems.

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I wish to consider your previously stated challenge, on what numbers ( evidence ) is it based ?

well allow me to wade on in here....
when thousands of possums were being shot,poisoned or whacked on the noggin with a 16oz claw hammer,the population was being lowered daily..... they would however have still been rooting like rabbits in the rooting season and repopulating country,HOWEVER.... there was less possum poontang to be doing the funky chicken than there would have been had the said shooting poisoning and noggin whacking been happening..so LOGIC WOULD SUGGEST the population was lowering by degrees


and I do not believe you need a degree to conclude that all the shooting,poisoning and noggin whacking was helping lower the poulation

and again I do not believe you need a degree to conclude that doing more shooting,poisoning and noggin whacking would still help to lower the population again....

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Originally Posted by No.3

Bit like the numbers of sheep quoted in NZ - a very well educated, scientifically generated wild arsed guess!

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Bingo, gold star right there.

The trust trying to eradicate Grey squirrels in the UK are making huge inroads with a bait that sterilises them from what I have read somewhere recently (wish I could remember where) and I have long advocated that is what we should be pushing for rather than poison.

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack

The trust trying to eradicate Grey squirrels in the UK are making huge inroads with a bait that sterilises them from what I have read somewhere recently (wish I could remember where) and I have long advocated that is what we should be pushing for rather than poison.

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This is good. It bypasses the issue with GMO to ensure eg a possum/rat only produces male offspring. The issue there is if a rat gets on a ship it could be all over for the country they get to.

Always identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss and I will be missed