good, thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
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good, thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
What historically was done to control deer numbers?
Government and private funded culling obviously, both by heli and nzfs etc.
Wasn't a deer carcass once worth money? What measures did MPI take that removed the monetary value of deer to the average hunter? Genuine question.
"1080 will never be used to eradicate deer." @Tahr. Never say never. Trials were done years ago on the effectiveness of . One trial was applying paste to foliage of preferred browse of Whitetail down south. There was talk of 1080 trials on Fallow down south as well (farmer initiative possibly), have been on a place where we shot a few for dog tucker and thinned the rest to waste. And it was accidently proven how effective it can be on Red deer on Molesworth a few years ago, everyone involved in that operation was horrified at the outcome of that operation.
You can’t really call the widest part of the country with an almost ubiquitous ungulate problem from coast to coast a local situation…. That’s a significant regional problem on a broad scale. From the far western Taranaki right the Wanganui, Manawatu, Taihape, Ruapehu, Taumarunui, Taupo, over to the Kaimanawas and through to the Wairarapa & Hawkes Bay and up into the East Cape. Red deer are on the move and are being seen in areas they have either never been seen before or they’ve long been assumed to have been eradicated. On one of my permissions near Ureti in the NW Taranaki, third-generation farmers are seeing fallow for the first time where previously they’ve only had a problem with pigs and goats. On another permission near Waverley in the S Taranaki, where there is a significant fallow population, the landowner was horrified to see a mob of reds on his back paddocks last winter. Never seen them before and neither have any of the guys that hunt his property. Ditto sika, they are starting to turn up all over the Western Ruapehu now, and that’s a very recent thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoppernator
People I know inland from Hicks Bay on the NE end of the Raukumaras talk about plagues of reds raiding their farms in numbers they’ve not experienced over three generations.
Similar sentiment from those on here that farm in Hawke’s Bay. Just look at @BRADS photos from a few days ago.
This isn’t a private block, local level problem, were taking out hinds on a recreational hunter level is going to make any difference. It’s a far bigger problem than that. But also I don’t think there’s any nationwide generalising happening here based on local observations at all. The comments so far have been quite specific geographically speaking.
its not licensed for use on ungulates. And the public would never allow it. Molesworth was a shambles but the silver lining was the increased acceptance and use of repellent and adjustments in sewing rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by woods223
"Also being nzda members reduces the risk of there being "fuckwits". Now there's a naive statement if ever there was. Being a member of NZDA or SCI doesn't negate the 'fuckfuck' element in society.
I know individuals that undertook some of those studies, mind-numbing work but provided sound data. The only problem is that there are vast tracts of land in private ownership that haven't been studied which hold animal numbers that would blow the minds of many on this forum. Just one station here in Marlborough culled over 1300 deer onlt a few years ago and are contemplating another operation. They might not get the same number of animals again but they'll come close. And theres other properties in the region with similar problems with deer and goats. There is one station now planted in pines for ETS, Trap & Trigger have shot many hundreds of animals there but they will never stop infill from surrounding areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
From 1931 til the 1970s, first Department of Internal Affairs then the Forest Service (after 1955) killed deer under government control programmes largely motivated by competition with farm livestock and general moral panic. There was poor setting of objectives and understanding of delivering effective work, and at a national scale this work (plus background rec hunter effort) likely did not stop the increase in deer numbers, however there is some evidence that localised well-planned operations achieved locally effective results. Govt hunters from 1936 - 1960 shot on average about 32,000 deer per year - up to 60,000. Govt effort hunting deer stopped in the 1970s once commercial hunting really took off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad S
There was some targeted aerial 1080 use in the late 1950s, targeting deer. There is poor evidence available of whether this was effective and effects on deer populations. Other than that there were a few odds and sods of trials of gel bait that have had mixed results. It's not likely to be a useful tool for a number of reasons.
In the early 1960s, commercial hunting (meat and subsequently live capture) became a strong additive pressure on top of NZFS and rec hunter kills. The combined effect of these added up to significantly reduce the population through the 1970s to a low point in the early 1980s. Commercial hunting at a national scale has been around an average of 16,000 deer since 1983 however. There are some local effects still but at a national level it is not a large or effective contribution anymore.
The incentives that drove the massive additional effort of commercial hunting at the time were peculiar and will not re-occur. Fixed exchange rate, tax write-off incentives, stocking for new deer farms, etc. These disappeared with Rogernomics in the 1980s as command economic systems do not work. They did create a huge market bubble for approximately 10 years - the price of wild venison in 1972 was approximately 7x what a WARO operator gets now, and running costs have also increased (fuel, parts, regulation) - inflation adjusted about double. So meat hunting from a helicopter was around 14x more profitable in 1972 than it is today. Live capture was also an incredibly lucrative business for a very short period - it was financially worth flying a helicopter for 10 hours to capture 1 hind. This translates perhaps to the levels of control effort (ie cost) that would be applied for eradicating the last deer from an Island - i.e. a very high level of effort. This level of incentive on top of the background effort by Govt/rec hunters contributed to driving populations to apparently extremely low levels mostly everywhere.
Increased food safety regulations have also put an end to any ground based commercial hunting.
Rec hunter harvest at a national level is poorly understood and there is very limited data. However estimates by Nugent 1988 are 54,667 deer and Kerr 2011 135,000 deer.
The available evidence suggests that all parts of the system are not keeping up with deer numbers increasing at a national scale, however there are significant local variances to this.
Agree, it's not licenced but they know it works. As so many on here keep stating, Govt. departments can be a law onto themselves and fuck the general public. I don't believe it will happen but who knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
great awnser Gimp - there were also problems with toxins and selling wild shot venison and 1080 was not always the problem - talon ( brodifacoum) was a real nasty and available without any license despite it being extremely residual -operators needed a clean pesticide report from the operational area to process wildshot deer and it was at times a bloody nightmare - trying to get accurate information - I had a license to sell wildshot but trying to get that clear pesticide report from all neighbors - I gave it up - I always understand talon (brodificoum ) did turn up in wildshot venison (Taumaranui) but dont quote me
Interesting piece there Gimp. But I'm sure many ex-cullers from that era would disagree with some of it, my father for one. He culled in the Marlborough region, mostly Molesworth ,St James and surrounding areas. The "Major" ran the Internal Affairs operation back then and Bill Chishom, an ex-culler himself, ran Molesworth. There were massive numbers of deer shot and culling operationd did have an effect. There simplly wasn't the manpower and/or money to be more effective. My father and Bill both told me that there weren't a great number of people that could hack the life. Many 'new chums' came and went, some lasted less than a week. That's cullers and stockman. I daresay the same would apply these days regarding foot-hunters and their stickability. Molesworth even have cases of potential stockman wanting assurances that they get the internet up there these days and no campouts ffs. Back then they tried their best controlling deer. Reading comments on this forum from time to time, I don't believe many on here would have the fortitude/stomach to do culling work day after day as is required. There's a couple of rather jaded individuals on here who know what's required. So effective deer/goat control will require chopper shooting for now and that's another skill/mindset again. Never mind the cost. Got off subject a bit but thats what happens here.
I believe sometimes we wear blinkers when looking at the past.
IM TOLD when the 1080 carrots were dropped in here...one of the first times it had been done..the place stank and was covered in deer carcases rotting.
by pinacles hut at mt somers is a basin called slaughter gully....Gerald O rouke hunting there in heyday...there was mob of 90 hinds there..how it got its name. Jim Darcy told me during the meat hunting years of 60s-70s there was mob of 6 lived there.... Ive shot a few close by but there is no "mob" lives there anymore..there are no mobs as such anywhere nearby either. when first started hunting there 30 years ago it was open country and vegetation was knee high...its not up over your head,no sheep grazing area now and no burn offs to keep it open.Im told repeatedly there are "lots of deer by Stavaley" but the NZTOPPO map shows most of the huntable area there is either private or coloured red..no hunting.... so here in south canterbury at least..the percieved issue on public land isnt caused by lack of hunting pressure where its allowed..more lack of access/land tied up.that same block has a "safari "operation on one side of it with some rather .....vigourous anti poaching activities for want of better term carried out,folks hunting legitamately on Doc controlled public land accused of being miles away FFS...
the big mob of stags that have been seen numerous times in area "not to far away" from here is on private land with zero oppertunity to be hunted...the lilybank senario all over again..private land nusery reseeding land all around it and good luck if you get caught shooting deer crossing road...will have book thrown at you
no not scaremongering thats how its playing out around here.
Im also told that the mobs of deer had to be stalked past to get at big tahr in the Timaru creek area near hawea.... first hand accounts from people who were there at the time.
I recall my family menfolk coming home from hunting the roar in area (central north island)we have hunted for 60 plus years 5 experienced hunters in for two weeks and never saw a thing that wasnt under a whirly bird being carted out.....that area gets hit by big 1080 drop every few years still...animal numbers sure arent excessive .there is at least one other forum member who hunts that area can confirm that.
And of course the generalised statement 'too many deer' is mostly meaningless. Its really all about the effective carrying capacity of each location, which varies wildly across the motu.
I would call myself "lucky" in that I have access to one private station - 7 hours drive away. I hunt mainly CNI and get a couple of trips to the Homeland (SI) every year.
Private land deer numbers are bordering on plague (in places) with no shortage of animals - the station next to the one I hunt on shot 300 odd red deer in a couple of mornings - till the deer got wise and then only fed at night.
Re CNI - in the back country numbers too are high, but you are looking at the best part of 6+ hrs walk in vs $2000+ with Helisika to get to an area to have then struggle on foot or be limited by the heli weights to get meat out. Afterall most of us hunt for enjoyment and meat and Helisika prices are justifiable to me.
Down south, I have never been skunked on a trip, numbers are good, even in places like Molesworth, where I hunted in October last year.
I understand farmers reluctance to allow hunters on their property but H+S shouldn't be the main reason, as persons undertaking a recreational activity on the property aren't (in my reading of the act)
It's a hard one to solve, but as I've got older I stress about it less and just go out and enjoy the time on the hill.
I'd have to disagree with thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Snoppernator
Some of us post time and time again about the deer numbers in the Ruahines accessible for everyone and reasonably central to all the north island and yet there's so many deer in there in winter they are literally starving to death.
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I aint no guide but I to am getting sick of killing deer,i like watching them though I always learn something new about them while watching them.I absolutely love the Roar and ill take a stag or 2 every roar as a trophy/memory and also a meat animal when needed but I don't like shooting to waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by BRADS
Alan Harrison ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Well this is depressing.
I still come home empty handed from time to time on public land which just proves how much I suck at this game.
Feel free to pm me some spots in the Tararuas where I can shoot deer in a barrel, I’ve got plenty of ammo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
PM about where you liveQuote:
Originally Posted by SPEARONZ
If it makes you feel any better, these two clowns were running around about a hundred m in front of your silage bale bench rest...30 and 31 Jan. at 10am even.Quote:
Originally Posted by SPEARONZ
Then again, you had quite the vertical string going on, so they could be quite safe:omg:;)
Attachment 243324
But the camera was out for 15 days, and they were only there on two occasions. Then 300 videos of blowing grass and trees.
Seems like you need a real time video feed to tell you when to kit up and head to the back of the farm, cause kitting up first and last light each night for a 15% chance of running into them gets old real quick.
a point on eating quality a red hind fallow doe heavy in fawn- really good eating - my cocky mates asked what's good beef - in calf jersey heifer - being preggy means yummy meat tender as - so get over the preggy bit and enjoy good meat
I reckon the Tararuas is hard work, try the Ruahines or Aorangi's.Quote:
Originally Posted by SPEARONZ
Classic, haven't laughed that hard for a long timeQuote:
Originally Posted by STC
Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
Funnily enough immediaty before reading this I was watching videos on using thermal drones for pest control. The purists here will hate this idea but I could see myself sitting on the deck with a coffee in the morning with the thermal drone checking the farm for me.... now just need to afford it, and then weaponise it to do all the work...
Need a big drone to carry it outQuote:
Originally Posted by Ben Waimata
The 1080 and other poison traces in meat thing is an interesting discussion, it's basically killed the feral recovery in a lot of areas. Other cost pressures are legislative - licensing and firearms approvals are a bloody nightmare and there isn't a coincidence that the real spike in numbers aligns with covid and the CHCH events. The poisons thing is bloody bad, it's even shown up in Manuka honey exports where any contamination is effectively banned. The trace amounts found are unlikely to do anything to humans but the allowable limits in some countries are so low as to be effectively zero allowed by the time you allow for detectable limits and the like.
Wanganui and Taranaki areas are one part of the country where animals are encroaching where they haven't been seen for a long time, and in resident numbers too. I think it's about time that we actually recognised what amount of control was being performed by recreational hunters, and in the areas where control has dropped off recently (assuming fairly static numbers of professional culling) the numbers of animals have risen exponentially.
Rex Forrester bookQuote:
Originally Posted by HILLBILLYHUNTERS
There wad big numbers down Ratehi way years ago. Can imagine the problem has only got worse.
Personally I hunt private mainly cos I have access n it's handy, no 3 or 7 hrs trips. Certainly not inundated with deer but are around.
I would have thought that if someone knew someone with access n the person wanting access had been living by the good bastards code, could it be worthy of a introduction to the owner/manager to ascertain suitability...??
No not trying to weasel a way in. Just putting it out there, especially for the jaded types it could be cool to show a new person around a property n get that 'fire' back...?
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I know cockie's who do a lambing bear in two halves.one half on bike second half has drone fly around paddocks looking for issues to sort manually. Makes sense as stock less disturbed every 2nd day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Waimata
So aside from folks shooting hinds at every reasonable oppurtunity - what else can we do?
Be given 2 free bullets for every tail we collect by the government or doc.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryMax
Deer are wild animals with a very highly tuned survival instinct .. . . . The fact that there are a lot of them now doesn't alter that. And there are a lot. Typical example. Central Otago Cocky reports 7 deer coming out on his young grass under the irrigation. This is Central Otago, nothing but rocks as far as the eye can see. A few gullies with tiny patches of matagouri scrub in them. One of the young guys went out and cast a thermal over the paddock. 28 Redskins, fucking 28! Now all 3 of us in our goat culling party spent an hour glassing the area that held these Reds, not a thing to be seen.
The point of this is that deer are not easy to hunt, never have been and never will be.
If you are not seeing deer when you are hunting 90% of the time I'd say you need to take a good look at your skills and work on those. I might be a slow learner but I reckon it took me at least 20 years to become a barely proficient hunter, I know I still have a lot to learn after 40 years of "armed tramping" (which I know is one of the reasons I shoot pretty low numbers).
So for those guys moaning about access and 1080, just get off your butts and do the Mahi to learn to hunt, it will take time but the journey can and should give you much pleasure.
Would that really motivate you to shoot more deer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trout
I shoot a .223, ammunition is basically free - the cost of 1 extra round isn't what stops me shooting more - it's largely limited time to get in the back country (and the cost of driving places at the moment).
Ha ha I just saw a pink pig fly past using his knackers as air brakes lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Trout
Another thing deer do is walk up to 10 -15ks in a night to get a feed and return to bed befor sunrise.Even when watching stags at night befor the moon rises they are happerly feeding,As the bright moon rises in the middle of the night,they scarper off for cover,smart allright.
You right there gimp,tank of gas is 2 pkts of bullets to me.and nearly everybody is time poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
Therein lies the problem. Most people these days, especially long range shooters, wouldn’t be arsed going to the trouble of recovering tokens/tails for say two rounds of ammo. Not enough motivation, me included at times. Private properties I shoot, take me at my word what I shoot. Nearly everything is gps marked though. DOC is the same although they occasionally ask for tails to be taken. Chopper shooting, the pilot’s there to verify kills. I guess tails would be the only reliable record for a bounty system if it ever came to pass for ground based hunting.
Last lot of Belmont ammo was around $1/round so not exactly free if shooting 100+ rounds/day. Thankfully most of mine is reimbursed. But yes, transport costs are getting up there too.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
