Thread: Defending hunters

Originally Posted by Aly

I have a problem when people want to throw *all* hunters under the bus and label them "sport hunters". Those people don't want to accept there are differences. They don't think of conservation for a reason or that providing meat for people as a reason or for farmers hunting is a way of looking after their land. When I have said I go hunting, I have been called that I'm doing it for "sport". That makes no sense to me? When I think of sport hunting I do think of trophy-only hunters, of which I know none personally. But I know plenty of people who hunt as a part of their lifestyle, for learning valuable bush skills, being out in the land and providing for themselves. I can't make sense of people who want to label hunting as I know it as "sport"; if it has been the same way for tens of thousands of years, how is it sport?

Anyway all that aside the best way to defend hunters is education, pretty simple. Yet lacking in our society.

Thats exactly my point. You may decide your reasons for hunting are more valid than a trophy hunter but whatever the difference is it's very subtle and doesn't matter to either the game animal or animal rights activests so you are splitting hairs.

I hunt for sport as we all do. Nobody in this country has to hunt for sustanance so even if you eat what you shoot you are still hunting for sport because it would have been a lot cheaper, quicker and simpler to buy a duck or venison roast from the supermarket.

@Spudattack - agree with everything you have said.

[QUOTEI tried to make this point in the thread about the bloke who killed Cecil the Lion but failed. If we condem or don't condone the dentist bloke who pulled the trigger then we condem ourselves because there is only a subtle difference as to why he wanted to kill a lion and why we want to hunt the species we hunt.

We hunt thing for many reasons, food, trophies, pest control and sport. All of these reasons are valid in the right context and it's fair to say the thing being hunted doesn't care about the reason or what happens to it after it's death - it just wants to keep on living.

The dentist bloke paid for a above board and legal lion hunt. His guides may have done something that could be clasified as poaching but but he paid for and expected a legal hunt so this isn't his crime.

The angry mob on bookface and the rest of the internet is now up in arms about how somone could kill the cuddly wuddly lion and why would anyone do that? This cuts to the heart of the very reason why we hunt and if we can't answer this question then our children won't get to enjoy the same hunting culture that we have.

The reason why we hunt is the same reason Cecil (used to) hunt - we are preaditors, it's in our nature and it's natural for us to do this.][/QUOTE]

thats the crux of the matter did he participate in a hunt knowing that unethical and illegal methods were bieng used.
must have been shit ph.s not to have stuck a couple of finishers in the lion bow hunt or no.
i thought imediate follow up and quick despatch would be part of a ph,s licencing duties.
trophy hunter meathunter whatever if he behaved outside the written and unwritten rules his trophy aint worth shit and his condemnation on those grounds is deserved from all of us.

Originally Posted by gsp follower

[QUOTEI tried to make this point in the thread about the bloke who killed Cecil the Lion but failed. If we condem or don't condone the dentist bloke who pulled the trigger then we condem ourselves because there is only a subtle difference as to why he wanted to kill a lion and why we want to hunt the species we hunt.

We hunt thing for many reasons, food, trophies, pest control and sport. All of these reasons are valid in the right context and it's fair to say the thing being hunted doesn't care about the reason or what happens to it after it's death - it just wants to keep on living.

The dentist bloke paid for a above board and legal lion hunt. His guides may have done something that could be clasified as poaching but but he paid for and expected a legal hunt so this isn't his crime.

The angry mob on bookface and the rest of the internet is now up in arms about how somone could kill the cuddly wuddly lion and why would anyone do that? This cuts to the heart of the very reason why we hunt and if we can't answer this question then our children won't get to enjoy the same hunting culture that we have.

The reason why we hunt is the same reason Cecil (used to) hunt - we are preaditors, it's in our nature and it's natural for us to do this.]

thats the crux of the matter did he participate in a hunt knowing that unethical and illegal methods were bieng used.
must have been shit ph.s not to have stuck a couple of finishers in the lion bow hunt or no.
i thought imediate follow up and quick despatch would be part of a ph,s licencing duties.
trophy hunter meathunter whatever if he behaved outside the written and unwritten rules his trophy aint worth shit and his condemnation on those grounds is deserved from all of us.[/QUOTE]

Code of ethics APHA: Welcome to Apha Website
not sure about zphga rules.
I did a few years guiding in Europe and North Africa (private properties) I have seen a couple of interesting people. Some clients didn't wanted to pay after their animal have been secured by my colleges. In most cases its up to the PH if he want to interact or not, in most you can see straight away if a followup shot is needed. Hunting big game especially something from the big five they should have secured the animal much sooner. But I haven't been there so not sure what happened exactly.

About this lady: sorry but she must be a resident of a different planet. For a second I felt like am back in the UK. Guys from there must be pretty familiar whit this.
I should write an article about cruel and sadistic teachers

Good creeping and lurking in the shadows for everyone!

BF

Originally Posted by gsp follower

[QUOTEI tried to make this point in the thread about the bloke who killed Cecil the Lion but failed. If we condem or don't condone the dentist bloke who pulled the trigger then we condem ourselves because there is only a subtle difference as to why he wanted to kill a lion and why we want to hunt the species we hunt.

We hunt thing for many reasons, food, trophies, pest control and sport. All of these reasons are valid in the right context and it's fair to say the thing being hunted doesn't care about the reason or what happens to it after it's death - it just wants to keep on living.

The dentist bloke paid for a above board and legal lion hunt. His guides may have done something that could be clasified as poaching but but he paid for and expected a legal hunt so this isn't his crime.

The angry mob on bookface and the rest of the internet is now up in arms about how somone could kill the cuddly wuddly lion and why would anyone do that? This cuts to the heart of the very reason why we hunt and if we can't answer this question then our children won't get to enjoy the same hunting culture that we have.

The reason why we hunt is the same reason Cecil (used to) hunt - we are preaditors, it's in our nature and it's natural for us to do this.]

thats the crux of the matter did he participate in a hunt knowing that unethical and illegal methods were bieng used.
must have been shit ph.s not to have stuck a couple of finishers in the lion bow hunt or no.
i thought imediate follow up and quick despatch would be part of a ph,s licencing duties.
trophy hunter meathunter whatever if he behaved outside the written and unwritten rules his trophy aint worth shit and his condemnation on those grounds is deserved from all of us.[/QUOTE]

Yep, another point is that it has not been proven that either Palmer or the Ph actually did anything illegal on this hunt, only allegations all made by the anti hunting crowd.

Aside from stuffing up the shot and the ph failing to finish it off immediately (again, we do not know the exact circumstances here) it is not clear than they did anything wrong, unethical perhaps, but also still to be proven.

To condemn them without knowing all the facts would be foolish.

But fully agree, should it be found that they acted illegally I have no issue with the full force of what little law Zimbabwe has to be thrown at them!

Nah his condemnation isn't justified on the basis of what we know that he did, nor is it ever justified to participate in trial by media ever.... leave that to the emotionally underdeveloped...

To scapegoat this guy, just to avoid association might be convenient ... but it just makes us exactly the same as the other people doing the same thing.

Personally I have no interest in any form of canned/guided hunting, nor predator hunting nor giraffe/elephant/rhino. But I'm not ignorant enough to insist that my personal values should apply across the board, unlike the numbies on the other side of this issue..

Trophy hunting might be harder to rationalise to the civilised uninformed, but it makes the most sense for african wildlife management. There is no place for meat hunting as a foreign exchange earner for those economies.

The dumb money in this debate is too dumb to understand the issues.

Originally Posted by Sidney

Nah his condemnation isn't justified on the basis of what we know that he did, nor is it ever justified to participate in trial by media ever.... leave that to the emotionally underdeveloped...

To scapegoat this guy, just to avoid association might be convenient ... but it just makes us exactly the same as the other people doing the same thing.

Personally I have no interest in any form of canned/guided hunting, nor predator hunting nor giraffe/elephant/rhino. But I'm not ignorant enough to insist that my personal values should apply across the board, unlike the numbies on the other side of this issue..

Trophy hunting might be harder to rationalise to the civilised uninformed, but it makes the most sense for african wildlife management. There is no place for meat hunting as a foreign exchange earner for those economies.

The dumb money in this debate is too dumb to understand the issues.

I agree. My issue is that it is commercialised hunting that most often puts a magnifying glass on every one that is captured under the banner of "hunting". Ill considered (perhaps irresponsible) exploit photo's, equipment and service advertising on easily accessible public pages my greatest concern.

Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

Thats exactly my point. You may decide your reasons for hunting are more valid than a trophy hunter but whatever the difference is it's very subtle and doesn't matter to either the game animal or animal rights activests so you are splitting hairs.

I hunt for sport as we all do. Nobody in this country has to hunt for sustanance so even if you eat what you shoot you are still hunting for sport because it would have been a lot cheaper, quicker and simpler to buy a duck or venison roast from the supermarket.

@Spudattack - agree with everything you have said.

+1

Each to their own. To the other side we are all the same. The fact that the wild hunted animal has less stress than the farm animal completely escapes them, provided they are not veges as well.

Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

Nobody in this country has to hunt for sustanance 8><---

Interestingly I came across a hunter the other day who is un-employed and hunts to put decent quality meat, venison/rabbit etc on his family's table, so I'll disagree with you here.

Originally Posted by steven

Interestingly I came across a hunter the other day who is un-employed and hunts to put decent quality meat, venison/rabbit etc on his family's table, so I'll disagree with you here.

Ok so there is one. He must live very close to his hunting area for the value of the meat he catches to be greater than the money he spends on gas driving out to get it. Thats assuming he already owns his equipment and values his time at $0 per hour.

Living in canterbury I couldn't get to an area where I could shoot a deer (or even a rabbit) for less than $50. $50 buys a lot of mince at pack n save.

I'm one of those who have a variable income of being self employed and hunting does provide meat during the months of no income what so ever and not knowing when things pick up. I live near to where I hunt and already have all the gear needed collected over many years so that is not a factor, besides most of it is not required. Fuel cost less than $4 return. You don't get much mince for $50, latest PNS price $10.98kg on sale, wow 5kg of fuck all. Do not speak for me or others on how I/we make ends meet.

Originally Posted by Slug

I'm one of those who have a variable income of being self employed and hunting does provide meat during the months of no income what so ever and not knowing when things pick up. I live near to where I hunt and already have all the gear needed collected over many years so that is not a factor, besides most of it is not required. Fuel cost less than $4 return. You don't get much mince for $50, latest PNS price $10.98kg on sale, wow 5kg of fuck all. Do not speak for me or others on how I/we make ends meet.

I wasn't aware I had offended you and I never questioned your right to put meat on the table. All I said is not many people in this country would be able to meat hunt for less than it costs to buy in the shop and I still stand by that opinion.

The real thing in question is a blokes right to go hunting in africa even if his target species looks cuddly and has a cute name.

If you can get an animal back home cleanly to process, I'd guestimate that's ~ $ 600 + of meat at the supermarket / butchers. Not the jizzy kind you get at PNS either. Agree deduct time and effort $/hr but add value $/hr for enjoyment @ rate of -$/hr at the pub ;-) and I think you have a net gain ...

Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan

If you can get an animal back home cleanly to process, I'd guestimate that's ~ $ 600 + of meat at the supermarket / butchers. Not the jizzy kind you get at PNS either. Agree deduct time and effort $/hr but add value $/hr for enjoyment @ rate of -$/hr at the pub ;-) and I think you have a net gain ...

id go further and say you had a priceless experience with a bonus meal or five thrown in.
a trophy legally taken in fair chase conditions in stunning scenery and a great example of its species would be a close 2nd