and also just where the bolt is sitting when you do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Makros
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and also just where the bolt is sitting when you do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Makros
Okay, just tried that, finger hurts, firing pin didn't release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Makros
It's occurred to me that these are useful interactions as none us know everything and anything we do know was either learnt through hard earnt experience or by someone teaching us.
Mickey sorry you're incorrect but I do admit we are arguing semantics around the definition of cocked. You are referring to a hammer gun being held in the half cock position by the sear.
A bolt out of a rifle has a cocked firing pin in it (unless you de-cock it of course). If inserted into the action and closed, without depressing the trigger, it will be held in the cocked position by the sear. The sear is not needed to be "cocked" it just functions to hold it in that position until you fire.
I think the 1/2 cock was a "thing" when every man and his dog used old milsurp 303's which cock I believe on closing.
Your primary safety is your trigger finger and muzzle direction awareness assuming you only load the chamber when you expect rifle to be immediately ready to go "bang" which is not when you are walking behind your mate for example.
The only reason why you may choose NOT to trust your modern rifle/modern safety is if you or someone else has tutu'ed with the trigger to make it "better"
Not really true with a BLR as the hammer is not lowered onto the firing pin but held 5mm or so above. If you drag the hammer back and let it go before it’s fully cocked/engaged it will fall back to that 5mm above position.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockland
If you have you pull the trigger at the same time it will strike the firing pin. Don’t know if this would fire the round as I’ve never had the nerve to test if.
But the above is just to say that not all firearms are made the same:)
That's comforting, I still wouldn't recommend using it, haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mm tragic
hammer is held in full cock position by sear on a hammer gun...unless you have trigger pulled
..yes spring is indeed under tension when modern bolt is in that position but the striker is prevented from DROPPING by bolt body UNTILL handle is turned therefore hanging that brick/hammer/striker in the air ready to drop..the leg on angle sort of thing.....when I release my bolt springs for storage,I rotate the striker into the fired position I cannot do that without ROTATING the striker/end of bolt....
Yes I agree, in all cases something must hold the firing pin in the cocked position. What that is or how it is achieved is irrelevant to its status as cocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Many an unsuspecting hunter has found their Sako or Tikka bolt in this position. If you don't know how to re-cock it it can be quite the handful... they seem to be a special kind of hard to re-cock. I won't re-cock my Sako 85 .375H&H without the wrench: https://www.beretta.com/en-us/gun-ac...for-85-series/Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
OK, (big sigh).
Someone touched on this previously, the history of the 'half cock' in NZ springs from the Lee Enfield rifles where the back of the bolt has a little lump machined into the back of the bolt that guides a knob on the cocking piece. This is designed to ensure that the rifle will only fire with the bolt fully in battery, or fully closed. If the bolt isn't fully closed, the knob on the cocking piece slams into the little lump in the groove in the bolt and either throws the bolt over to the right locking it fully into battery, or to the left fully opening the bolt. Combined with this is a second notch under the cocking piece that was designed to catch the tip of the sear and lock the bolt in position in the action and also to prevent the firing pin from going far enough forwards to initiate the primer.
Some wise arsed Kiwi noted this setup, and cottoned onto the fact that it could be used to lock the bolt into position meaning the little fiddly lever of the safety catch could be dispensed with - but it's dodgy in use as not all cocking pieces and bolts were equipped with these features and also you could slip and stuff up the manual engagement of the 'half cock lock' and accidentally discharge the round.
This didn't really apply to most other rifle types, and Kiwi's have been trying to mimic the feature ever since to varying levels of success. Most rifles are not designed with such a system built into them, so some don't work at all for this purpose. Other types don't have 'out of battery' protection so you could theoretically discharge on a half locked bolt which is potentially a colossal clusterfluck looking for somewhere to happen. I'm not really in favour of the half cock unless it's a designed in firing pin blocking type with out of battery protection - and as noted most rifles don't have this.
One big thing to watch for in push feed actions is the fact that upon chambering a round, you don’t fully engage the bolt, ie. straight to half cock after chambering, then try to extract a round, the extractor wouldn’t have been engaged and loaded round will stay in chamber.
I’ve seen it twice where someone has gone straight to half cock in a Tikka and then not fired a shot, gone to extract the round later and nothing comes out of extraction port. They’ve then assumed that they never picked up a round from the magazine in the first instance, closed the bolt, therefore loading a live round in the chamber without even knowing.
WOW that photo is better than hoped...top silver bolt is howa 1500 that is in the spring stretched position,the striker is back at rear of bolt and the sticky up cleaner metal bit is what the sear enguages BUT ITS NOT rotated around to nearest to bolt handle where NOTCH is deepest..allowing that clean metal bit to DROP down into fired postion poking firing pin out front of bolt face...displayed by the model 70 bolt below it..what is sticking up on top bolt is now closest to camera and the angled face the trigger sear enguages is shown..the rem 700 works the same way.
I hunt with the safety on. I like being able to feel the bolt is locked. That way I can feel the safety is on.
Always point in a safe direction of course.
its a right bitch to undo on the remington 700..need vice grips GENTLY (akaroa1 please no lynch party) to hold it to turn it.... the zastavas and that model 70 can be turned by hand firmly..the Howa is tight and needed grips too....yo ucan turn Howa THE OPPOSITE WAY AND UNSCREW IT for cleaning..on the model 70 shown yo uswing safety to middle position and then push in the wee lock shown at top position and then unscrew bolt....Quote:
Originally Posted by Makros
Can you stick the Rem 700 bolt in backwards and use the groove in the receiver and turn the bolt handle to re-cock? You can with a Tikka. I only own a Christensen Arms Rem 700 clone not an actual Remington and you can re-cock that by hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
An interesting aspect of the 'half cock position' is that it is basically a New Zealand thing. Overseas hunters come here and go WTF? It's not taught or condoned in other countries that I know of. These days it probably pays to remember rule three.
I have trouble believing a firearm with a closed action is safe.
I usually use half cock. Providing Ive checked it out and it has a half cock notch. Greg Duley did a very good article in their magazine about how to do this on Remington 700 rifles. I presume their clones would be the same.
Tragic started a thread on "Which Rifle". I said Blaser to meet his requirements. Blaser gets my vote on this subject too
Not wanting to start something semantic, but as others have stated 'There is No 'half cock' on cock on opening actions' There is a 'Half open bolt position' The two are completely different.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mmwsm
I too use the 'half open bolt' for the last moments before a shot
Being a lefty using a rh rifle has an advantage for me in this situation. I carry the rifle with bolt closed on empty chamber. When a shot looks likely Ill load a round into chamber and hold bolt closed handle up with my thumb. If a shot presents its self I can move my thumb across the back of the bolt to the handle and lower it with my thumb as I'm raising the rifle for a shot in one movement.
To those of you who trust a safety catch, get a mate to:
-put a live round in the chamber of your rifle
-close the bolt (cocking the rifle)
- apply the safety
-point the muzzle at your tummy
-pull the trigger...................................if your answer is "Ranger888, are you out of your **@##%%$ mind???", you obviously don't trust your safety. Sorted.
While all this arguing about what is cocked and what is not is great, to answer the question from my own personal preference, I hunt with Howa 1500s with almost all my rifles in several calibers.
These safeties I do trust, I carry my rifle mag full chamber empty and safety in the bolt lock 3rd position, this locks the bolt closed and safes the trigger mech.
When I sight an animal I flick off the safety, cycle the round, with the Howa you can do this almost silently, and close the bolt and the safety goes back on to 3rd.
When I'm ready to shoot after my stalk or getting into position to miss and rifle is being aimed, just a flick of the thumb which again it not very audible and good to go.
I am not a fan of walking around with my action open or even half open. as soon as I'm back at the truck or the hut the bolt comes out with the ammo out the bottom of the hinge plate.
With my system I can rest my thumb next to the safety and feel it's in the rear position while walking which is for me, a little constant check of the state of the rifle without having to peep down at the gun or anything.
My two cents.
There are two important things that are not generally taught regarding handling and safety.
1) when checking the chamber is 'clear' / empty, very few people know to use the little finger of the right hand and slip the finger into the chamber. This check can be performed equally in the dark or light. It is failsafe and foolproof.
2) Few people know how to load a round into the chamber quietly by bringing the fingers of the left hand around the action to ride the shell forward into the chamber.
Once this is mastered there is little need to carry the rifle with one up the spout and the safety on.
Some actions like tikkas are enclosed and make safe quiet loading and unloading difficult.
Regarding the 'Half open bolt position' there are actions that have a very positive position and that I believe are made to be used that way. The BSA CF2 would be stiffest followed by early Sako's then M98's. modern rifles have an almost non existent HOB.
The main problem with these threads are that 'half cock' is a misnomer when used to describe 'half-open-bolt'. It's in the same mentality ballpark as calling a rifle with a pistol grip, a machine-gun.
Semantics but if you call petrol 'fuel', and you call diesel 'fuel', sooner or later this can lead to difficulties with your vehicle starting, rough running, misfires, smoke and failure to run.
If you call 'half-open-bolt' 'half-cock', and you call a half cocked hammer 'half-cock' sooner or later this can lead to the uninitiated believing that a 'half-open-bolt' is a safety design equivalent to 'half-cock' when in fact they are different things that apply to usually different rifles.
It's a dumbed down over simplification that can lead to trouble.
Half cock is a hammer or striker position that is not full cock ready to fire, but not with the firing pin resting on the primer either. It is a feature of most exposed hammer actions and many of the older bolt actions including the SMLE. It is achieved after chambering a round by taking up the tension on the striker or hammer, squeezing the trigger and gently lowering the hammer or striker to the half-cock position. The hammer or striker is then pulled back to full-cock when the shooter decides they are ready to fire.
Attachment 229714
As per the picture above, on some rifles such the Rossi pomba or H&R Handi rifle, hammer-down (in lieu of half-cock) is a relatively safe state, as there is a transfer bar between the hammer and the firing pin that drops away when the hammer is de-cocked, so the hammer rests off the firing pin. On some lever actions and other older designs there is only a small leaf spring engaging with the hammer to hold it a half-cock.
The picture below is of a revolver hammer, but it shows the general principle of exposed hammer half-cock without transfer bar.
Attachment 229713
If a firearm with exposed hammer or striker is dropped and it lands hammer first with a round in the chamber, there is a chance that round will discharge, if the firearm has the transfer bar system, that chance is miniscule, it has happened plenty of times to exposed hammer firearms that did not have the transfer bar system.
There have also been occasions where a firearm has discharged under the following circumstances (this is not the full list):
-when the safety wasn't on and there was a round in the chamber
-when they safety was on and there was a round in the chamber
-the person holding the firearm thought the safety was on and there was a round in the chamber.
-the person holding the firearm didn't know if the safety was on so they pulled the trigger to check if the safety was on and there was a round in the chamber.
-the bolt was half closed and got bumped to 3-4 closed and the trigger was pulled and there was a round in the chamber.
-the bolt got bumped closed while someone had their finger on the trigger and there was a round in the chamber.
-the barrel was really hot and there was a round in the chamber.
-the person holding the firearm deliberately squeezed the trigger while aiming at a target they wanted to shoot and there was a round in the chamber.
The point I am trying to make with the list above is that if there is a round in the chamber, there is some chance of discharge, the only way around that is not putting a round in the chamber, ever. But that would make the firearm pointless, so we manage that risk if we put a round in the chamber.
A safety catch is one mechanism that can help us with this, but it is naïve to view it as 100% reliable, it is at best, only as good as the operator, and from there we work downward to outright dangerous.
There are many different safety designs with different pros and cons and different levels of effectiveness, so no outright statement can apply to the reliability or efficacy of the safety catch in general.
Neither can any outright statement apply to the efficacy of the half-open-bolt principle as again it depends on the type and condition of the bolt.
The best you can do is fully understand your own firearm, how the safety works, how the cocking mechanism works and what is best in your circumstances, if there is lack of enlightenment or if there is doubt, don't hunt with 'one up the spout'.
I don't think you'll find anyone suggesting they trust a safety, half cock, or half bolt open in the way you suggest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger 888
I do think this is the most absurd and misguided example of entirely missing the point I've read for some time.
My apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
What I meant to say was "half uncocked"
I disagree, I think that this totally crystalizes the point for those people who up until reading it believed that modern firearms safeties are 100% reliable etc because manufacturers fear litigation etc etcQuote:
Originally Posted by Makros
“Load a firearm only when ready to fire”.
To me, “ready to fire” is when I’m in position to take the shot.
Bush hunting I like to have the bolt pushed forward enough to engage the round into the end of it, but the round is only half in the chamber.
Doing this, I can close the bolt quickly and silently, and can glance down and see the status of the rifle.
I was once camped with a guy who was using a lovely kimber Montana. He swore by hunting with rifle loaded and safety on.
Then one cold morning he went off up the road on his way out hunting for the day. BOOM.
Best we could work out is that his rifle had got wet previous day and the firing pin had somehow frozen open.
It costs me the odd deer but I do my half loaded thing AND engage the trigger safety if the footings a bit dickey.
Only take the safety back off when I’m sitting waiting or the footings reliable.
I remember our Mountain Safety instructor explaining ' A state of semi readiness is like having half an erection boys' I always thought the term 'half cock' was from that ? But I was only 14 when I did my firearms course and might have got it wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by 7mmwsm
Can I take it then that you don't totally trust your safety catch? (I wasn't referring to half-cock, or half-open bolt, just a safety catch)Quote:
Originally Posted by Makros
Never heard of a fourteen year old having a half erection. Didn't think that sort of thing started until about sixty (I'm not sixty yet).Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
So probably not a very good example to get his point across to that age group
I think you will discover you have opened a can of worms, i think we debated this on here last year or the year before.
Anyway, if its a modern rifle in good nic then just use the safety mate and keep it pointed in safe direction.
If its an old rifle that's worn and you don't trust it, just keep chamber empty keep it pointed in safe direction
If its a lee enfield use halfcock and keep it pointed in safe direction, pretty sure that's where this practice started anyway
:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:Quote:
Originally Posted by No.3
Some rifles will actually drop the bolt and fire if you pull the trigger with the bolf half cocked
I used to hunt with rifle at "half bolt". Was taught that way by my father who removed the safety from his main rifle due to not trusting it.
These days most of my rifles are tikkas and i use the safety.
I hunt with a round chambered and safety on. If traversing a rugged bit then I unload. (reason I prefer top loaders)
If hunting with others then only the person in front is loaded.
See how a rifle 'slam fires' if bolt moved a little from 'half cock'
Looking at the answers from the different members on this post, it is interesting that each individual way of treating the problem might be linked to their location and the type of environment they hunt in. Hunting the kaimai is widely different to hunting the plains of Canterbury …
With all this cold weather at the moment Im using the half cock method...
It also seems to be a certain age demographic that prefer "half open" (or whatever you want to call it) to a specifically designed safety system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Friwi
Modern rifle , 100% the safety. A well known / respected Tauranga gunsmith said to me if they ( safety's ) didn't work the likes of Remington, Winchester , Savage would be sued out of business.
Makes sense to me , running an empty chamber until a round is needed makes sense also depending on what type of country you hunt.
