the OFF TOPIC to Stags shot 21 (discussion of wild animal management)

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Originally Posted by gimp

I have not been able to find any good information on year-on-year antler development of an individual stag. Is anyone aware of any resources that show this? It might be interesting.

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The only really good info that I have seen was from a German deer park where each male was photographed each year until full maturity or culling. In that Park the stags were from 10 to 13yrs when they produced their best heads. There is a marked change / improvement in the antler heads of stags as they enter physical maturity (5yrs). When they are young ( up till four ) they are growing their frame and filling out at the same time of year they are growing antlers. Once mature the antlers improve markedly because much more of the feed intake can be channeled to antler growth. We are seeing that exponential improvement now in stags not shot last year.
On NZ deer farms animals bred to supply the trophy park industry will produce their highest scoring head at 6 or 7 and their heaviest head around 9 or 10 years. As they age the tines shorten and thicken reducing score but increasing mass.

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Originally Posted by Ftx325

hey no problem with that . We all have our limits as to how much we can carry and I would not expect mere mortals as ourselves to carry out an entire stag . Obviously size and weight limits apply , as I mentioned with goats I can generally handle 2 animals but that would be my limit , maybe 3 small ones . I wouldn't shoot any more just because i could . I guess what I am trying to say is I personally would shoot one and take as much from that one animal as I could rather than bowl five and just take back steaks from each....

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I get it and to the guy that do haul out loads of full stags as I'm sure they exist I envy them but I also hope they can still get out when they are older as theirs more than a pig hunter or 2 with damaged knees and backs from carrying them out whole.

The only thing in there that I think you are missing or maybe just don't see the same value in as I do, is that I'm not just shooting an extra one because I can I shooting it as shooting another hind is like controlling the population by 5-7 animals. Its not I like shooting them in fact while I say I would it's very rare I do this. Most I've ever shot was two hinds and I felt the same sentiment you do and tried to take back steaks, tenderloins, rear quarters, the hearts and the 1 front shoulder that wasn't minced. That also the trip I did my knee with repeated loading going down and uphill for a sustained trip.

Last Saturday I was getting out as the masses descended on where I was hunting and knew where a hind an Yearling where hand to a track and the road in a little scrub covered basin. To try save as much meat as possible I flicked a message to my partner to come walk in the dark at 4 am to meet me at first light with a mostly empty pack to knock these both over and still be able to haul most of them off the hill. Unfortunately the rain set of the stags and getting distracted meant they had gone to cover by the time we came back from them and there was only a chammy buck hanging out. Who I left as I've been fortunate to take a number of good bucks and where he was meant it was kind of likely he could end up a young hunters or somebodies first buck and a good one at that.

So while I completely understand your choice I see population control as our duty as its hard to bitch about culls etc when we bring it on ourselves. I've said before I'd love to see WARO restricted to hinds and maybe one day partially subsidised in areas of high populations or fragile environments that mean the private sector can fund or partially fund culling in the least detrimental way to recreational hunters because while I think we should help where possible some areas its not possible to do on foot.

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Originally Posted by Stocky

I get it
So while I completely understand your choice I see population control as our duty as its hard to bitch about culls etc when we bring it on ourselves. I've said before I'd love to see WARO restricted to hinds and maybe one day partially subsidised in areas of high populations or fragile environments that mean the private sector can fund or partially fund culling in the least detrimental way to recreational hunters because while I think we should help where possible some areas its not possible to do on foot.

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This is a huge factor,
ive been doing my own researches in ways i cant explain, but i talk to quite alot of shooters and i pick up what gets put down around the place , to my knowledge .. whatever that matters,
that in Aus particularly, that a good % of Sambar hunters now days doin the back pack thing into remote areas, they primarily shoot Antlers, from back in the earlier 90s/2000s it began, it was a secret society , these guys actually watched stags in areas over year before taking them, an hunting the areas 4-12 times a year on backpack hunts to look for the deer, at some stage through that year they would take a Big Stag, chosen, but often seen many times before, eluded and beaten etc........
what im getting at is Todays culture is to Go back pack hunting for a Week but definatly Kill a Stag.. over the years (touching on potentials/age/what 1 year does/ etc) the Stags have been hunted and Shot, resulting in the many 'age' of stags due to the older guys not killen much at all in there, the pressure slowly rising from hunters expanding into backpack hunting, the newer guys who do see a 27 inch Stag a Trophy (1st or 5th stag ??) and may shoot that 25 incher on the LAst day to make sure its Youtube Content-able and instagramable about the Trip into the Valley...

that 25 incher, or for Kiwis, that 10pt 29 inch Red, just might of needed to be left alone for another few encounters with hunters before it can be ** potentially spruked across the internet for decades as one of the largest stags taken in year 20XX, or some beast that had 60 inch thirds?? lol, whatever..

in changing some hunters or upcoming young fellas sorta opinion and Us hunters explaining some hunters remorse on Camera if we do have a outlet, doesnt make ya weak, or a shit hunter, it shows ya starting to understand just whats happening in the world around Us, whilst we do chase up our favourite recreation that it on the brink of collapse, showing more interest in the animal and the big picture around what we do with the animal and how thats allowed or Why etc is sort of another chapter but in the short term, mostly Everyone does want a big set of Antlers, its fact there is in most places a "deer issue" , if more than less hunters showed this conservative side to the "feral game hunting" scenerio we are in, You could fairly steadily improve the "average" head in ya local forest , i rekon. through restraint , photography, social media and taking that hind for the venno, and hunting different country aka farm land, to get meat helps huge = 1x less velvet stag ya need to take for meat/ but go backpack hunting n scout an observe and learn, kill when needed.

its all food for thought, im a fairly opiniated dude ive figured out , also not singling out too many or any, but im also one of those guys that knows discussing this shit with ya mates over Beers , is great but discussing it on a Forum can do amazing things.... it can also make others have the view one is a little troppo but there is quite a few of us out there that do mostly just think about deer and deer hunting and why it is how it is an ways it could be improved.... i also feel with the internet, things like this can pop up an nek minnit a magazine editor or influencial fella gets onto it, feels the same, learns a way to express that himself, takes others views into his arguement and takes peoples expressed views and words into account,,, it can be awesome.

hooroo

Don't forget the ribs! I've started carrying an Estwing hatchet on meat hunting trips and taking ribs off deer. Venison ribs are delicious.

Last 2 red hinds I shot I took ribs, hearts, back legs, backsteaks, and undamaged front shoulders from 2 (small) deer. It was a heavy carry.


From a practical perspective I absolutely agree that for the hunting sector to have any credibility in discussions of management in future we need to demonstrate that we can contribute to managing deer numbers. DOC currently gathers no useful data on hunter contributions to ungulate management. Understanding hunter contributions is the first step to understanding hunter value for conservation management, perhaps we should be keeping our own (accurate and honest) records and submitting those in some fashion. GAC could advocate for a DOC led hunting returns app e.g. the Tahr app - which I believe has seen more or less no take-up....

To manage ungulates in NZ in the future in any positive way to achieve beneficial outcomes for all stakeholders we need to be building constructive working relationships with DOC as the primary management agency, rather than the current adversarial situation. Of course, the Dept needs to reciprocate this and there are legislative hurdles to this as DOC has a specific legal mandate under National Parks, Conservation, Reserves and Wild Animal Control acts but to my understanding of the substance of these acts, nothing actually insurmountable in many public land areas, National Parks being the major exception.

My interests and motivations are more maintaining the social license to hunt and keep/manage a huntable population of game animals in NZ, while improving native biodiversity and habitat, rather than specifically growing more large trophy animals, but my belief is that the latter is a likely by-product of good management for the former.

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Originally Posted by Stocky

I get it and to the guy that do haul out loads of full stags as I'm sure they exist I envy them but I also hope they can still get out when they are older as theirs more than a pig hunter or 2 with damaged knees and backs from carrying them out whole.

The only thing in there that I think you are missing or maybe just don't see the same value in as I do, is that I'm not just shooting an extra one because I can I shooting it as shooting another hind is like controlling the population by 5-7 animals. Its not I like shooting them in fact while I say I would it's very rare I do this. Most I've ever shot was two hinds and I felt the same sentiment you do and tried to take back steaks, tenderloins, rear quarters, the hearts and the 1 front shoulder that wasn't minced. That also the trip I did my knee with repeated loading going down and uphill for a sustained trip.

Last Saturday I was getting out as the masses descended on where I was hunting and knew where a hind an Yearling where hand to a track and the road in a little scrub covered basin. To try save as much meat as possible I flicked a message to my partner to come walk in the dark at 4 am to meet me at first light with a mostly empty pack to knock these both over and still be able to haul most of them off the hill. Unfortunately the rain set of the stags and getting distracted meant they had gone to cover by the time we came back from them and there was only a chammy buck hanging out. Who I left as I've been fortunate to take a number of good bucks and where he was meant it was kind of likely he could end up a young hunters or somebodies first buck and a good one at that.

So while I completely understand your choice I see population control as our duty as its hard to bitch about culls etc when we bring it on ourselves. I've said before I'd love to see WARO restricted to hinds and maybe one day partially subsidised in areas of high populations or fragile environments that mean the private sector can fund or partially fund culling in the least detrimental way to recreational hunters because while I think we should help where possible some areas its not possible to do on foot.

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Yep I understand . And as I mentioned I generally only shoot hinds anyway as where I hunt doc there's a shit load of hunters (7 at the hut a few trips back not inc my lot) there's few stags around that I see besides spikers which I am happy to leave alone as they may grow into decent specimens . In fact , I have only ever shot 1 fallow stag , every fallow has been female . Last walk in for 4 days we kept seeing the same red hind with fawn but left them alone , took a fallow hind on the last morning . I guess we could/should have taken the red but the thought of bowling mum and young doesn't appeal to me , even if it means leaving empty handed.
But again to be honest , thats more a case of it being generally females I see rather than stags , and even the spikers have usually had a female or two close by which I shoot instead . If the choice was spiker/stag or nothing ... well , I don't walk all that way for nothing.....

I'm really impressed with the ethics of the US elk (and moose) hunters. I know they're required to take out all the meat by law. But that seems to have turned into the ethic that it should be done; law or no law. You often see them packing meat out over 2 or 3 days over many miles, on foot out of really gnarly country at altitudes of 8-11,000 ft! Trimming out all the ribs, shin meat, hearts, liver, tongue etc

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Originally Posted by gimp

Don't forget the ribs! I've started carrying an Estwing hatchet on meat hunting trips and taking ribs off deer. Venison ribs are delicious.

Last 2 red hinds I shot I took ribs, hearts, back legs, backsteaks, and undamaged front shoulders from 2 (small) deer. It was a heavy carry.


From a practical perspective I absolutely agree that for the hunting sector to have any credibility in discussions of management in future we need to demonstrate that we can contribute to managing deer numbers. DOC currently gathers no useful data on hunter contributions to ungulate management. Understanding hunter contributions is the first step to understanding hunter value for conservation management, perhaps we should be keeping our own (accurate and honest) records and submitting those in some fashion. GAC could advocate for a DOC led hunting returns app e.g. the Tahr app - which I believe has seen more or less no take-up....

To manage ungulates in NZ in the future in any positive way to achieve beneficial outcomes for all stakeholders we need to be building constructive working relationships with DOC as the primary management agency, rather than the current adversarial situation. Of course, the Dept needs to reciprocate this and there are legislative hurdles to this as DOC has a specific legal mandate under National Parks, Conservation, Reserves and Wild Animal Control acts but to my understanding of the substance of these acts, nothing actually insurmountable in many public land areas, National Parks being the major exception.

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How do you prep ribs Gimp? I always take the flaps and bone across the ribs as well for stew meat.

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Originally Posted by gimp

we need to demonstrate that we can contribute to managing deer numbers

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Of course, in making this statement I have fallen into the classic trap: managing numbers is sort of irrelevant, understanding and managing outcomes is the important part

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

How do you prep ribs Gimp? I always take the flaps and bone across the ribs as well for stew meat.

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I take the ribs off either side and then split into smaller racks. Braise in the oven or parboil for a few hours, with a rub or a braising liquid, then finish on the charcoal grill (BBQ or under the grill in the oven would work) to crisp up. They're delicious.

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Originally Posted by gimp

My interests and motivations are more maintaining the social license to hunt and keep/manage a huntable population of game animals in NZ, while improving native biodiversity and habitat, rather than specifically growing more large trophy animals, but my belief is that the latter is a likely by-product of good management for the former.

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Yeap bro this is the big picture though in my opinion :)

above and beyond the Quality deer management for Antlers :)

antlers is just easier to begin to discuss the process of management ,which stems right up to what your saying, short term, basic SIKA foundation fundamentals get the uneducated well on their way to learning more about that future...

i rekon.
ADA have antlers from a penned stag spike to death..... visually tells more than anyone saying between 3 and 5 years is dramatic let alone another 8... etc :)

Tis up too older Gens i feel to grace Us with their knowledge and Views and opinions as to why it hasnt worked forever and some little things we could all Take on board to improve and rise above...:)

Antler quality for trophy hunting is not a good sell to the general non-hunting public as a reason for game animal management. It's a non-starter. The words "Trophy Hunting" bring to mind all the worst connotations of hunting.

also side note- alot of kiwi hutner gatherer channels etc, more the merrier on 'utilising a ribs' or ya know, more odd videos included into the hunt at the end just showin a quick backsteak meal, or heart, etc, then someone new sees the Ribs prepped an also takes those off next hind etc. :)

i know i did, rinella my man

Speaking of generally under-utilised cuts, I want to try making venison bacon with a brisket.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Antler quality for trophy hunting is not a good sell to the general non-hunting public as a reason for game animal management. It's a non-starter. The words "Trophy Hunting" bring to mind all the worst connotations of hunting.

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Im not selling to general public though, im selling to Hunters in the Same forests, in which i seek a higher overall quality of hunting.

to elaborate-

thats another thing to the hunter in which he must express in good sense and vibes , to the general public, also another chapter in the whole public land / recreational hunter game