Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by Hermitage

Hunter Nick I'll answer your question directly:
I don't believe there is any objective measure that can prove to me that the .223 (even with heavy for calibre 73-88gr fast twist bullets) is a legitimate deer hunting cartridge when COMPARED to larger calibres.
This is due to basic physics...the larger calibres outperform the .223 ballistically, penetrating deeper and transferring more energy. They are just superior in range, power, and penetration.
As you implied caliber debate is never ending... they are always a bit silly, and people rarely prove one popular cartridge is better than another. Different rounds have different purposes, and there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit.

The 224 bullet designs of the last 10-15 years lie right at the heart of
what is annoying @Hunter_Nick viz a viz people not accepting that rhe 224s can now foot it with bigger calibres. The Sectional Density (SD) and better jacket to core performance of them HAS changed the game. And much of the shooting world hasnt really noticed!

Im not real keen on being the Guinea pig to try out new bullet designs on game but once its been "done", for me its game on, hence the 22 CM thats now in the cabinet with the "deer hunting rifles!

Originally Posted by Tentman

The 224 bullet designs of the last 10-15 years lie right at the heart of
what is annoying @Hunter_Nick viz a viz people not accepting that rhe 224s can now foot it with bigger calibres. The Sectional Density (SD) and better jacket to core performance of them HAS changed the game. And much of the shooting world hasnt really noticed!

Im not real keen on being the Guinea pig to try out new bullet designs on game but once its been "done", for me its game on, hence the 22 CM thats now in the cabinet with the "deer hunting rifles!

Im not sure thats whats being said. I accept the 223 can foot it in big game hunting. Im just not sure it can claim equality.

Originally Posted by Tentman

The 224 bullet designs of the last 10-15 years lie right at the heart of
what is annoying @Hunter_Nick viz a viz people not accepting that rhe 224s can now foot it with bigger calibres. The Sectional Density (SD) and better jacket to core performance of them HAS changed the game. And much of the shooting world hasnt really noticed!

Im not real keen on being the Guinea pig to try out new bullet designs on game but once its been "done", for me its game on, hence the 22 CM thats now in the cabinet with the "deer hunting rifles!

Hey, I’m not annoyed about anything. I was just interested to see if someone would lay down a challenge, as it would be something fun that could potentially raise a few eyebrows. To be fair, I think I’ll just go ahead and make up my own challenge anyway!

I really shouldn’t have expected any different from beginning a thread like this. I have bought shame on my family…..

It is the 224's in general hes talking about I think

I was shot in the leg by a .223 from close range in a hunting accident.
The round entered the lateral side of my left leg about 5cm below the knee. It lodged in my tibia. It caused a compression injury to my lateral meniscus. It caused a pulling tear to the medial meniscus. It also stretched and tore my medial collateral ligament, partially tore my patellar tendon and tore both the ACL and my PCL.
Didn’t really hurt at first, but it dropped me like a rock. I've always suspected that had it been a .308, it probably would have ripped my leg off at the knee. Better a chronically sore leg and a limp than no leg.

Originally Posted by Hermitage

I was shot in the leg by a .223 from close range in a hunting accident.
The round entered the lateral side of my left leg about 5cm below the knee. It lodged in my tibia. It caused a compression injury to my lateral meniscus. It caused a pulling tear to the medial meniscus. It also stretched and tore my medial collateral ligament, partially tore my patellar tendon and tore both the ACL and my PCL.
Didn’t really hurt at first, but it dropped me like a rock. I've always suspected that had it been a .308, it probably would have ripped my leg off at the knee. Better a chronically sore leg and a limp than no leg.

Wow, you are I believe quite correct - a bigger caliber bullet would likely not have lodged in the tibia it would have passed straight through. I take my hat of to you though, you have experience something that most people haven't and lived to comment on the thread with actual first hand experience. In your case for whatever reason I would suggest that the bullet would not have been capable of the job the OP asked!

Originally Posted by Hermitage

I was shot in the leg by a .223 from close range in a hunting accident.
The round entered the lateral side of my left leg about 5cm below the knee. It lodged in my tibia. It caused a compression injury to my lateral meniscus. It caused a pulling tear to the medial meniscus. It also stretched and tore my medial collateral ligament, partially tore my patellar tendon and tore both the ACL and my PCL.
Didn’t really hurt at first, but it dropped me like a rock. I've always suspected that had it been a .308, it probably would have ripped my leg off at the knee. Better a chronically sore leg and a limp than no leg.

I'm sorry that you had that experience. It must have been rather unpleasant.

Was it a 73,75,80,88gr ELDM, 74 or 80gr Targex, 77gr TMK, 77,80,85gr Berger?

Originally Posted by gimp

I'm sorry that you had that experience. It must have been rather unpleasant.

Was it a 73,75,80,88gr ELDM, 74 or 80gr Targex, 77gr SMK, 77,80,85gr Berger?

Yeah no 'heavy for calibre' bullets involved as this was back in 1991 when I was a student at Teachers College.
My mate & I did a Sth Island trip and this happened when we were shooting rabbits in Tekapo. Back then we didn't have rangefinders so were reloading using small-for-calibre bullets at high velocity for MPBR (we did have a 'Shooters Chrony' chronograph).
I was using a Ruger .25/06 shooting 85gr Nosler Ballistic Tips @ 3600fps and he was using a Brno Fox shooting 40 gr Sierra Blitzkings @3700, so it was a very fragile explosive bullet.

Therefore I'll admit the bullet that I was hit with was nothing compared to the heavy-for-calibre bullets this thread is based on.

Originally Posted by Hermitage

Yeah no 'heavy for calibre' bullets involved as this was back in 1991 when I was a student at Teachers College.
My mate & I did a Sth Island trip and this happened when we were shooting rabbits in Tekapo. Back then we didn't have rangefinders so were reloading using small-for-calibre bullets at high velocity for MPBR (we did have a 'Shooters Chrony' chronograph).
I was using a Ruger .25/06 shooting 85gr Nosler Ballistic Tips @ 3600fps and he was using a Brno Fox shooting 40 gr Sierra Blitzkings @3700, so it was a very fragile explosive bullet.

Therefore I'll admit the bullet that I was hit with was nothing compared to the heavy-for-calibre bullets this thread is based on.

Nice controlled and factual answer to what could have been taken as a sarcastic question. All bullet wounds hurt and can do considerable damage, even 224 fmj, which a lot of people seem to write off as ineffective for anything.

I took it as more 223 related from the original question.

[QUOTE]So, to the doubters- What would it take for you to be convinced that a .223 with heavy for caliber (73-88gr) bullets is a LEGITIMATE deer hunting cartridge? /QUOTE]

Though Im not sure it makes much difference.

Another way of thinking about this - years ago a 243 with an 87 gn boolit was accepted as perfectly OK, the 224s are now throwing vastly better projectile designs (than were available 30+ years ago) theres no appreciable difference between a 80gn 0.556mm ELDM and a 6.0mm 87gn of say the 1970s

Originally Posted by Tentman

Another way of thinking about this - years ago a 243 with an 87 gn boolit was accepted as perfectly OK, the 224s are now throwing vastly better projectile designs (than were available 30+ years ago) theres no appreciable difference between a 80gn 0.556mm ELDM and a 6.0mm 87gn of say the 1970s

Finally someone else says it

Are you running your ELDM at the same speed as the 87grain 6mm?

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Are you running your ELDM at the same speed as the 87grain 6mm?

80eldm 2900 out of a 22" Tikka. 2830 from a 20". (223).

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Are you running your ELDM at the same speed as the 87grain 6mm?

If you start an 87gr SP and a 80gr ELDM at 3000/2800 fps, the .223 bullet is going faster by 200 metres.