Thread: A question for the doubters

Personally, I prefer to be overgunned. We owe the animal a clean kill, and a larger caliber just gives a bit more wriggle room, for my tastes. I have shot medium pigs at short range with a .22LR, but that was a case of an opportunity, and the discipline to sneak in close and place my shot. I didn't take it to mean a .22 is a pig gun. That's just me. I hate to wound an animal, even pests like possums and rabbits, or rats.

yeahh lots of good calibers really I am more interested to see whats coming up in the field of night vision stuff maybe combination scope - range finder with heat detection and compact that would be something

I’m with growlybear. Over gunned is good. We do owe animals a death as quickly as possible, with as much certainty as can be assured. We play this game for fun, they pay with there lives.

Originally Posted by Growlybear

Personally, I prefer to be overgunned. We owe the animal a clean kill, and a larger caliber just gives a bit more wriggle room, for my tastes. I have shot medium pigs at short range with a .22LR, but that was a case of an opportunity, and the discipline to sneak in close and place my shot. I didn't take it to mean a .22 is a pig gun. That's just me. I hate to wound an animal, even pests like possums and rabbits, or rats.

Do you use match type projectiles?

My experience of .224 75gr and 80gr eldm @2900fps mv @50m to 300m is that they usually dont exit the head and top of neck on deer. This proves they are very frangible and will be less likely to get the job done on adverse conditions shots.
If they had some .224 high bc bonded options then i would be alot more comfortable shooting rutting stags with the .224 cartridges.
Obviously im a subscriber of shooting deer with the .223 and especially high bc heavy eldms etc but only in open country and not bush and rut conditions.

To the people that say they like to be overgunned. Let's assume your using highly fragmenting match type projectiles in your bigger options.

As is clearly seen in any calibrated gel test these bullets hit expand in a cone shape then form a semi cylindrical shaped wound channel.

If a 224 projectile creates a wound that's around 8inchs in diameter and a 308 projectile at the same speed produces one that is let's say 11 inchs diameter to allow for the percentage larger diameter.

This means that when you make a "bad shot" the 308 will allow you to hit something critical that you would have missed with the 224 projectile by about 1.5 inchs. If the shot it this bad your already missing by a near 8-10inchs.

Now consider that the 224 with its lower recoil will mean its easier to shoot and you are more likely to be able to shoot better which quickly eats into that 1.5inchs. It's also helps you to be able to stay on the animal during recoil in hunting weight rifles. If you argue that the lighter recoil doesn't effect accuracy or is combatted by superior ballistics that some but not all larger chamberings have then maybe ask why a 6mm bullet at 2750 is soo common in PRS style shooting. It's because all the ballistic performance in the world can't make up for not being able to put the bullet where it needs to go due to too much recoil.

Another point is typically it will be easier to launch a the 224 projectile faster and as such inside of the most common hunting ranges its actually going to be faster and likely have a larger diameter wound channel.

Going to any controlled expansion projectiles in the bigger options like a Barnes also limits wound channels and limits terminal range as they need alot of speed and the ones that "open up" at 1800-2000fps usually just have the tips peeled open and that's the biggest it got meaning most of the way it was smaller.

I'm not saying that they are better but there's atleast a strong argument they aren't worse.

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

This conversation seems to have moved to more about the projectile than the cartridge.
Why don't you guys run these big projectiles in something like a 220 Swift or 22 250. And really light them up?

This is what I am doing, will end up a a bit quicker than a 220 swift but I will limited to the 75 eldm (maybe 80) due to the twist of the barrel I had at my disposal

Originally Posted by Roarless20

My experience of .224 75gr and 80gr eldm @2900fps mv @50m to 300m is that they usually dont exit the head and top of neck on deer. This proves they are very frangible and will be less likely to get the job done on adverse conditions shots.
If they had some .224 high bc bonded options then i would be alot more comfortable shooting rutting stags with the .224 cartridges.
Obviously im a subscriber of shooting deer with the .223 and especially high bc heavy eldms etc but only in open country and not bush and rut conditions.

There is an 80grn ELDX now.

The 80 Targex is harder than the ELDM.

Prs is target shooting so largely irrelevant to this discussion. If you can’t get a 160 grain bullet into an inch group at 100 meters that’s your problem, not mine. As far as wound channel diameter, your missing another dimension. As in length, that’s important too. If someone tries to tell me a .224 88grain eldm doing 2800fps is going to penetrate as well as a .284 160grain accubond doing 3200fps and create a larger wound channel I think I’ll scream. And yes people can shoot them accurately enough to hit a deer where they want to.

Originally Posted by Mararoa

Prs is target shooting so largely irrelevant to this discussion. If you can’t get a 160 grain bullet into an inch group at 100 meters that’s your problem, not mine. As far as wound channel diameter, your missing another dimension. As in length, that’s important too. If someone tries to tell me a .224 88grain eldm doing 2800fps is going to penetrate as well as a .284 160grain accubond doing 3200fps and create a larger wound channel I think I’ll scream. And yes people can shoot them accurately enough to hit a deer where they want to.

I think the 160AB would have a greater retained weight than the ELDM started out with

Originally Posted by Tahr

To be fair, the heavy .223 bullets are all cup and core and relatively cheap ($70/100). In fact that is their strength. OK penetration and frangible. Nice mushrooms are out, organ damage is in.

.270 Speer hot cores are $75//100

Cheers, so projectile price is about the same and all thats really different is more powder. A quick add up and it cost me 55c per round for powder and at current prices on primers if I had to buy them, Id be looking at around 1.50 per round.

Its the cheapest part of my day if I fire a shot.

Originally Posted by Mararoa

Prs is target shooting so largely irrelevant to this discussion. If you can’t get a 160 grain bullet into an inch group at 100 meters that’s your problem, not mine. As far as wound channel diameter, your missing another dimension. As in length, that’s important too. If someone tries to tell me a .224 88grain eldm doing 2800fps is going to penetrate as well as a .284 160grain accubond doing 3200fps and create a larger wound channel I think I’ll scream. And yes people can shoot them accurately enough to hit a deer where they want to.

That's a bad comparison, ELDM target orientated projectile verse a heavily tapered jacket hunting projectile....

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No it’s not a bad comparison. It a comparison between a popular hunting projectile on this thread (224 88 grain eldm) and the benefits of using and another projectile.

Originally Posted by Mararoa

No it’s not a bad comparison. It a comparison between a popular hunting projectile on this thread (224 88 grain eldm) and the benefits of using and another projectile.

Fair enough. The thread has ventured away from its intention to establish if we agree that the 223 with ELDM type heavies is a legit medium game cartridge. Strong debate for & against has made some interesting reading. The OP must have known he would have a wingman or two to back up his own experience to venture into such a topic Happy hunting with the .224 on post #224


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Yeah I think you’ve summed up this thread well. I for one agree that a .223 is a legitimate hunting cartridge for medium game. However let’s not lead some less experienced hunters to believe it’s a great choice, and all round go to every situation caliber. It most certainly has its limitations. Anyway I’m off for a hunt. Working on shooting a deer over a very busy young gsp in the bush, just learning to trust him. He took me to three lots of deer in the thick stuff last time we were out and I fluffed every chance. He must wonder what sort of a dick he’s ended up with.