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Here's a real foreigner question.
Walking up (and down) rivers.
In another thread I was looking for some nice multi-day armed tramps to do. One came up with a bunch of river walking.
Having spend Saturday falling around the Kaniwhaniwha making arse of myself and scaring trout, I'm wondering how you walk rivers with a heavy pack/firearm?
Do you just step in with your boots on and get on with it?
Can't see Croc'ing it being a viable option?
Make sure you can get pack off fast and easy before heading into a river...
Yep !!Quote:
Originally Posted by davetapson
Boots that drain easily are a good idea.
As are walking poles with rubber feet [emoji6]
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Unless alpine hunting it used to be that if you had dry feet you weren't really hunting . . . Wear your boots. Im not sure where Blip is coming from but if you do arse up be bloody sure you hang onto your pack, it's your best flotation and at least in the big Sth Is rivers I've had difficulties with, will save your life.
I keep boots on, but am aware of vibram soles as they can be slippery when wet. I kept my pack on, but undo waist strap in case of an arse up. If using a pole for support, have it on upstream side so water pressure forces it down.
I recall in the late 60’s a mate drowned crossing the Tongariro river. As a non swimmer, he kept his pack on and tied himself to an inner tube. Got upended, with the tube acting as buoyancy and the pack full of meat as a lead keel.
Yes, unless it's winter and dry boots are required for survival just walk through.
What Blip is referring to is ensuring you unclip your waist and chest straps so you can escape from your pack if it gets caught up on something and holds you under water.
A good pack liner keeps your gear dry if you arse up and makes your pack float like Tentman said.
Try getting your boots wet at home first. When my otherwise excellent boots get soaked, they develop a very annoying squeak. I really don't need a hunting handicap!
There's a good book on the topic ...
Attachment 238705
We can't go over it.
We can't go under it.
Oh no!
We've got to go through it!
What rumpy saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Tentman
There's a fella in a famous book does it really well. :thumbsup:
Walking poles and rifle strapped to the back pack
Pack very nearly killed my wife in 2013, went tits up in the Okuku river after heavy rain (we shouldnt have been crossing it to begin with..) and the combination of panic, cold hands and the violent nature of the water meant she couldnt get it off, it floated, but was on her back and was forcing her under the water, I have never scrambled so hard in my life but managed to get a hold of it and drag her out, still dont know to this day how I managed that but it was just the begining of a complete fuck up that ended in getting dragged out of there by LandSARQuote:
Originally Posted by RUMPY
I have the Canterbury Environment River Flow data on my phone. I always check it at home before hunting up rivers. After many trips you get to know what the limit is for certain rivers. Plus it saves you fuel driving there only to find out its a bit too high.
I found you just have to bite the bullet and accept you will get wet and cold feet from the start. Take it slow and methodical. There's no hurry. This is if you are stalking up said river possibly expecting to see a deer.
Bullers and put motorcycle studs in them. Makes a difference. No diving when you hit weedy and slimey rocks. Will find link.
https://www.dkmfishing.nz/orvis-wadi...-in-studs-24pk
These but I bought 1k from USA. Dude on TM sells them but inflated price. Need glue to fix them in when you screw them in.
It depends. Only one or a handful of crossings then I would make the effort to keep dry boots. A lot of crossings however where stopping every time just isn’t really viable then just get wet feet. But then if I was somewhere like the southern alps middle of winter then i’d be trying pretty hard to keep dry feet. So yeah, kinda depends on the day.
pack floating is a technique you need to learn and practise...
old school frame pack..you use it like a float board...
internal frame..like most of you have,you sit facing downstream,lean back like in an arm chair,scull with arms out to side and keep feet infront of you to fend yourself off rocks....yes the buckle thing is controversial...I BELIEVE the current theory is still you half undo them,eg you do strap up tight and click the bottom out,so just need to hit top leg in buckle and you are free.
big plastic bags around your stuff mean the pack is very bouyant...a couple of empty plastic bottles and its VERY bouyant.
leaning where and when NOT TO CROSS is just as important.... drowning used to be referred to as the New Zealand death,as we had horrific statistics in early years.
A walking pole held and used UPSTREAM of you is very handy - I have a length of Manuka I use when going up the Waipakihi. Leave it in the bush when I finish in the river, and pick it up on the way home for the downstream trip.
If I'm carrying a pack I have it on one shoulder only, so if I go tits up it won't hold me under. So far (touch wood) I've never had to dump it, but keep the plb on your belt or around your neck or whatever for when you do.
Not trying to start an argument here. Genuinely interested in the walking pole upstream or down. I'm a 25yr veteran of fly fishing rivers back when I was a lot younger. I often used a pole and in those days it was a single Ski pole on a wrist loop. I ALWAYS placed it downstream of my feet. Couple of reasons. If just crossing a river I a crossed on an angle from downstream to slightly upstream if possible. The pole went down first for firm contact then I would move one foot, secure it, then move the other. Two feet in place and body braced I would then move the pole. I tried with pole upstream but the danger was a fast strong current lifting me off my feet/foot and then the pole does absolutely nothing. You're in the water. If the pole is downstream and one or both feet lift you still have the pole firmly grounded and now your weight on it makes it even more so. When fishing upstream I always walked away from the pole testing my footing and depth each step. When sure of my footing I would then reposition the pole - behind me. I could lean on it if necessary or at least brace while doing other fishing stuff.
Other than probing upstream for obstacles etc while feet are secure I would never rely on trying to move with my pole upstream. The mechanics just don't physically work.
So now tell me why I'm wrong lol
a pole upstream is being pushed DOWN with the force of water,if your leaning on it hard it will want to stay down no matter how hard the flow,if bottom is on bottom the top will want to push downwards
if you have it downstream,the waters force is trying to lift it off bottom or tear it from your grip...or in extreme..lift you up.
now funny as it sounds,years ago crossing opihi river with my Bro in law..us both wearing waders,half way across,his body weight was less than bouyancy of wader....should have been called Bob...I continued across river with him semi floating beside me,so downward force is rather important lol
What he saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
An upstream pole is held in place by the current, and downstream it is trying to lift the pole - especially if the pole floats.... like wood does, for example.
Pretty sure that is what we were taught a long time ago pole upstream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Nolan
Did a school trip into the bottom of the Waipakihi, took the old mans landrover and carried all the packs across.
Teacher said righto you need to do river crossing.
We said no way we have dry feet from crossing in the landrover.
Mind you did learn about drying out the drum brakes after a river crossing scared the living shit out of me.
Sorry guys, still don't buy it, both from experience and logic. Doesn't matter how hard the current pushes a skinny pole down it will do the same if it is positioned upstream or down unless its exactly in the "shadow" of your leg. Which is not how it works. The pole will/should be away from your legs to give you the tripod effect. And any current pressure on the pole will be significantly multiplied on your legs of such larger circumference. Useless having the current pushing the pole down if its also floating your legs away downstream from under you. I can just see the cartoon of a horizontal hunter desperately hanging onto an upstream pole begging it to stay upright.
Anyway, glad it works for you.
Finding a pair of old thick socks in the hut and wearing them on the outside of your sandals is one method I have seen used to effect.
Having a good stick or pole is hugely beneficial. You can use it for balance and to check depth ahead of you. Mine has a ring of red tape just below the ’too deep’ marker. As has been mentioned, keep the stick on your upstream side.
Often river travel is a case of crossing back and forth to walk on the ‘beaches’ on the inside of the curves as both banks will alternate between ‘deep pool next to steep banks’ on outside of curves and beach on inside.
You had BRAKES?! Luxury!!Quote:
Originally Posted by erniec
You really need to do a bunch of testing (in summer :D) in a variety of swiftness and depth rivers to get a real appreciation of what works and why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhon
In the 70's the tramping club I was in, used to head off down to the Otaki river in late summer and spend a day on river Xing practice. It was an ideal learning river, as at that time it was nice and warm, the braids allowed you to find different depths, and different velocities.
Fast water does not need to be more than calf deep before it will upend you. The upstream pole is to give your body stability when lifting one foot and moving it forward, as without it you are attempting to be a ballerina in two foot of fast flowing water. The pole does not anchor you, it just gives you more balance.
If you lose your footing in fast flowing water, you can regroup with a pole upstream as you can bring it forward with you and stab it back in, but with a pole downstream you end up tripping over the bloody thing, and once your body is down in the water its very very hard to get back upright and sort shit out.
In the decades well before lightweight inflatable kayaks and pack rafts were invented, big heavy plastic bags inside your canvas pack, and tied tightly at the neck were the only inflation aids we had for negotiating deep river Xings and gorges. Never had walking sticks either. Just used a manuka pole.
Yes agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
I've thought about it a lot since my provocative posts :) and all the gentle replies :) :)
I have to concede that in the river crossings all y'all are really talking about, fast water, potentially deep fast water, the stick up stream would be entirely correct
for the reasons described.
I guess my stubborn perplexity was/is driven by a much more genteel experience of wading for trout. I mostly crossed what deerstalkers would likely regard as quieter waters, on a down stream angle, and if using a stick, used it to probe the footing ahead of me. Fishing upstream, if in the water, the ski pole would have been more out to my left side or trailing.
I will find a fast river this summer and no doubt prove your point. If you see me floating past feel free to chuck a line lol.
mate..the last wee stream I crossed with LURCH......was rather..shall we say "interesting" because the option was to cross or climb back up steep shitty hill..I decided I (read stubborn old fart)was crossing,shell be right...normally ankle deep..thought yeah looks about knee high,flowing fast....
I went first,was mid thigh..but good solid bouldery bottom..a maunuka pole would have been huge help in stabalising..but I got across and the other two linked together and followed...
only because I knew what stream bed was like and have crossed many worse did I do this....in hindsight we should have gone back the other way... but some how I dont think the big fella from up north would have enjoyed hiking back up n over hill.
@moahunter - favourite topic.
Pole upstream, crossing angled downward across the current. Use ropes if with a mate and it’s borderline.
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The other really good one to practice in summer before doing it for real is linking up by holding the far side pack strap(s) of the person or people you are with. When done properly you suddenly understand why it is so easy for the four legged to negotiate some of the places they go.
But it isn’t something you want to be learning on the job. There is a line between doing it right and making it work or doing it wrong and floating away.
If I have to do a lot of river walking I have a pair of spiked sole neoprene dive bootees which are bloody marvellous on slimy rocks, but you still have to be careful. If you arse up in such places the results will be painful at best, and possibly fatal at worst.
