Shooting through stuff.

There is discussion in another thread about bullet behaviour after hitting obstacles.

My understanding and experience has been that bullet shape doesn't make much difference. If its going to deflect it will.

Here's an 80grn Targex .223 from a Fallow that was screened by light scrub that I shot through on purpose. about 120 yards. The scrub was at max smaller than finger sized.

You will see that the bullet was destabilised and key holed but still killed the animal. Penetration was pretty good. Bullet performance was pretty good really.

Attachment 217535

Attachment 217536

yip my track record through tussock is terrible unless up close and using shotgun LOL.
basically from all Ive read and seen over the years,its got to be a light screen of vegetation,twigs n leaves and animal needs to be CLOSE to it,the further from animal to twig etc the worse the result will be...and the mighty .243 USED to be sworn at if twig was struck on way to animal... doesnt take much to really upset a fragile pill going fast. a heavy slug going slower is slightly less likely to misbehave as its bigger/heavier and has more of it to arrive and more mass to move off intended path .
the only time Ive nearly been injured from firearm other than 177 air rifle pellet coming back and hitting me,was a .12ga solid of all things that went through a rams head then bounced around walls of woolshed before stopping balanced on grating by my foot!!!! went back to emery spanner to "quiet them down' before slitting throat after that......back in days before rules had changed..a big dogtucker ram was hard work for a teenager to handle.

I once shot a goat with a 6.5x55 156gr Norma round nose. Goat was about 20-30m through the bush, one shot and it fell over dead. When we went up to it I realised I had shot clean a small tree about 5-7cm diameter. The tree was a couple of metres in front of the goat. No idea how I didn’t see it. I can see why the Swedes use it to shoot moose

I used to use CAC 180 grain hollow points in my Finnwolf, shot a red spikey one really wet day, could hardly make him out in the scope, things were they wet.
Centred the crosshairs on where I judged his chest was ( range about 30 yards) and let rip.

Spikey obligingly fell over dead and at the same time I was (again!) drenched by a very localized down pour.

Bullet had gone through the centre of a beech tree as thick as a (proper sized!) beer bottle and shook the rain off its branches.

On dealing with the deer I found the bullet had keyholed through two ribs then carried on through the chest cavity and shattered the upper leg bone and stopped just under the skin.

Oh, tree was about 5 yards on front of the deer.

Impressed by the performance?
Hell yes!

I shot this "twig" a few years back.
The fallow further down the hill still died. Sierra 125gr FNHP from a 30-30
Attachment 217567

https://swiftsilentdeadly.com/shooti...-with-pistols/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 308

https://swiftsilentdeadly.com/shooti...-with-pistols/

---

Interesting, I wounder if the geometry of the bullets makes a difference. Short pistol bullets, slugs and pellets vs longer rifle bullets. I have definitely seen/herd ricochets of rifle bullets off small branches which must mean a bullet off-target.

Shot a hare the other night at 50m with a .22 sub, all I could see was its ears above the clumpy cocksfoot grass.

A hunting acquaintance if mine had a tree strike with the 3006 down Stewart Isla d on a whitetail.
The guy that was meant to sort our tucker for the trip had done a naff job assuming we were going to slay heaps of deer.yeah...nah.
Anyway he knew there was a tree in the way but the only super clear shot would've wrecked the back half so no good.
Aimed as close to the tree as he old and let rip.
Just managed to hit the tree but got the deer.
Bullet was in 2 pieces and luckily didn't wreck buggered all meat.
My take on that is with a bigger bullet that goes through stuff, the bits that are left are still bigger so might still work. As MD suggested they can't be to far behind the sticks.
Anything too small turns into shrapnel
Obviously a bit of a generic theory as there are shit tons of variables

When I was doing quite a bit of culling I was using a 308 and tracer rounds because they were cheap. It was eye opening to see where projectiles went after hitting something and the angles they would fly off at. The moral I learned from that was not to take anything for granted. Id say that any time you shoot through stuff and kill the animal on other side, then you had an element of luck on your side. From memory reading the same or similar articles over the years, pointed projectiles came out on top and I guess a heavier spire point will perform better than a lighter spire point.
One thing Ive learnt over the years is, and it is not just relevant to this subject, That if you are unsure you will kill something, dont shoot. If you dont shoot its still there to be shot later. If you do shoot and wound it, you have probably lost it and you wont get another chance while the shot has recked your chance at another animal nearby as well.

From the link in the other thread, the barnes projectiles came out best for holding the line, bonded second best and the heavy for cal slow round nose were worst for flying straight after hitting scrub

The longer the bullet, the less likely to sod off at weird angles is my take from doing this over the years. It's something that just happens in thick bush, can't really avoid it.

If you look at the calibers people have said go well through stuff, .243 100gr and Swede 6.5mm - they are the higher weights and longer for the caliber than lighter bullets. That seems to be the deciding factor, if you think a .22LR which are horrendous for richochet they are barely as long as wide. I missed four shots on one bunny accidentally clipping a fence wire (no8 type) between me and the target as it was only a wee bit in front of the muzzle and not visible through the scope. Didn't work out what was happening until the fourth one where me offsider saw the wire wiggle. Had that one other time with a centerfire (exactly the same deal) and it pinged the wire in two and still went where it was aimed. Much to my mates disgust, as he had to fix the fence...

@whanahuia I had a good shot on a goat with the 357 rossi years ago.
Was up the bank looking for it and it had circled ba k around behind me on the lower ground, walking between 2 dredge ponds.
Maybe 50m away. Had the 2 lads with me, maybe 12 and 8yrs old and already mucked up a shot on o e so no pressure lol.
Absolutely perfect shot.
I was giving it the smallest amount of lead so I would get it in the shoulder but hit it in the neck.
Slightly down hill shot. Saw the splash from the projectile hit the water maybe 10 metres behind it but up and to the right by about 2m each direction

Quote from other thread.

Quote:

---

Did you read the article ? It makes a very strong case for using a good bonded projectile. The 270 is on of those rounds that really tests projectiles because the initial muzzle velocity is higher that ideal for cup and core type bullets. If I pay $140 per projectile instead of $.70 it is only a difference of $.70 per shot extra and I can absolutely be sure that out of say seventy shots at game from a box of one hundred bullets I will have more humane kills with the bonded bullets and recover more meat as well. With meat at near $20 for beef mince, one extra deer per box of projectiles and less meat wasted with bullets that pass through makes the bonded projectiles effectively 'Free'.
I used to love the Winny Powerpoints, and they are good, but damage meat and are not good enough for stags

---

In a perfect world you are right. But there are other factors, and cost at purchase is relevant if you are on a budget. Which many are. Also relevant is other performance factors such as accuracy in your rifle etc, which will bring you more comfort and assurance of success.
One thing that I think does come into play, is that with the availability of better reloading equipment, powders and chronographs etc now than say 20+years ago. Plus the addition of apps and rangefinders and higher spec scopes. We are all possibly achieving higher velocities and using our rifles in a much wider range of situations than what the older projectiles were expected to function at.

I look back at my early reloading and know now that I had no clue what speed I was driving projectiles at and in general, in later years when I did test them, they were mildly disappointing.

“I look back at my early reloading and know now that I had no clue what speed I was driving projectiles at and in general, in later years when I did test them, they were mildly disappointing.”

Hence the saying ‘chronographs have ruined many a good load’.

Most recently had a 6mm projectile deflect so badly through what I though was very fine brush that I clean missed an animal from about 10m and was absolutely sure of a steady shot.

Was a 70gr 6mm projectile though so quite short, which seems to align with experience from others being that longer projectiles deflect less.

These might do it.
Attachment 217625

not according to some ..its round nosed and heavy and slow......I would happily say it will work just fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

not according to some ..its round nosed and heavy and slow......I would happily say it will work just fine.

---

Well one of my old load for the 416 remmy had 340 gainers nudging just past 2700fps.
Big heavy and fast would work too I reckon lol

freight train comes to mind.

Back in the 80’s I run a muck with my 243. I had found an area ploughed up by a big stag and had found several freshly used rut pads (this was in June) I retreated out of area with the intention of returning for evening hunt and came prepared for a late night with spotlight. It was only a few minutes walk into the area that had the rut pads back in the pines in a clear area. I sat back against a tree and waited , listening to the trees rattling in the average breeze. Half an hour before dark out stepped a massive stag beautiful antlers that almost formed a circle and white tips every where. He walked around to my right then stopped behind a light screen of scrub but still visible enough for a good shot. I fired , he launched and in a bound was gone, no blood and I could hear him disappearing towards the gorge. I went to where he was standing at the shot and found the screen of scrub was about 10 meters in front of him and my 243 bullet just didn’t make it through.
On the morning hunt I had my 30 06 but decided to take the 243 in the evening as I new the shot would be close so figured the nice accurate 243 was the ticket, I think the out come would have been better with the 30 06 but I will never know now.
I remember reading a Norma catalogue and they set up a test shooting through willow sticks and tried various cartridges and the one least affected was the 222 REM.

Standard issue for it and the old 416 Rigby which had a major hand in its development was 400grs at 2400 fps

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by john m

These might do it.
Attachment 217625

---

My guess is that SD has something to do with it also. A 45 cal 500gn has a train load of SD (.34). On the other hand the 100gn 243 is .24 which is still reasonable. .22lr is crap, 0.11 or there about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 300CALMAN

My guess is that SD has something to do with it also. A 45 cal 500gn has a train load of SD (.34). On the other hand the 100gn 243 is .24 which is still reasonable. .22lr is crap, 0.11 or there about.

---

Yes. Exactly the reason I have never thought you need premium or bonded bullets for 6.5 caliber. They penetrate so well anyway 'cos of their high SD.

170grn .277 has better SD than a 180grn .308 think back to when 200-220grn was usual load for 303 and 30/06 they were considered very good penertrating loads and ok at brush busting..same thing,heavy and long..an arrow is the extreme of this
many many years ago the BS tv programme thats incredible did a demo that has always stuck with me....sand bag stopped rifle and handgun bullets but an arrow went right through it...I believe its because the arse is still pushing the front and momentum keeps it going where as the bullet is short and all getting slowed up at same time.
think of a train crash.....the rear carrages keep pushing the front.

Also, an arrow is designed to expend as little energy as possible in order to achieve the most cutting area possible. Where as a bullet is designed to expend its energy rather quickly. Two totally different methods of killing. You really do not want to get a deflection of any sort with an arrow. it will ruin your day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by csmiffy

Well one of my old load for the 416 remmy had 340 gainers nudging just past 2700fps.
Big heavy and fast would work too I reckon lol

---

The 416 will have great penetration due to momentum. Interestingly, although there are tables for calculating momentum no one ever considers it, only referring to foot pounds of energy. It is the ability to maintain a straight path after hitting scrub that is of interest.
I had an instance two years ago where with a good rest and time I gut shot a two year old stag at about 140 metres. I then stood up and shot another one in the chest at 200. I pondered that first poor shot for a long time and went back for some forensics. There was some fine Manuka about six metres in front of where the stag had been that the bullet must have clipped. He was moving forward slowly feeding and I was trying to time things to get two. Even though shot in the guts, he only went a short distance before collapsing. That was a 140 gr Accubond and I doubt a cup and core would of stopped that deer. So the AB did not keep a perfect straight path, but it did hold together to anchor the deer

Had been following this thread with interest. Friday just gone spent a few hours goat shooting in reasonably tight scrub, 10-15m visibility at best, using 223. Anyhow, 5 goats were shot with intervening light scrub in front of animals. One animal was trotting across gap in front of me. Took a shot and got animal in the chest but also dropped 40mm sapling that was directly in front of animal. Wasn’t pretty but it worked. Anyhow my point is that some people get to hung up on waiting for perfectly clear shots and maybe lose out on an animal. Admittedly the odd follow up shot is required but that can happen any time. No photos as generally can’t be arsed with goats, take token or gps waypoint and move on. Just my 2 cents.