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Thread: This is Supposedly the Companies Heli Slaughtering the Tahr

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by sore head stoat View Post
    My guess is the Mt Cook lily is well capable of surviving and thriving without tahr as it has been here a hell of a lot longer than tahr ?
    sooooooo. Dinosaurs must have been well capable of thriving a'cos they were around a lot longer than humans?
    chainsaw likes this.
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  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetman View Post
    Snap. Just the video I was about to link to.
    Well lets hope that everyone watches it and understands the implications - the photos from Mexico, where there were no native herds of large grazing mammals are revealing.
    gadgetman likes this.
    'Bother' said Pooh, as he chambered another round ... Wong Far King Way

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by sore head stoat View Post
    You guys cant be serious.. ffs we have a plant that has been here adapting to its environmet 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of years you add an animal that eats it and you think it is going to enhance that plant along with all the other plants that the animal eats. Adaptation takes millenia.. Read about tahrs grazing habits..

    Bergs comment is just plainly bloody ridiculous "balance" Yeah tell that to a kiwi chick that is just about to be eaten by a stoat.

    No wonder with comments about "balance" hunters are not taken seriously by environmentalists.

    Trying to compare wolves in Yellowstone to NZ is also plainly ridiculous.. wolves grew up in that environment and the animals and plants have evolved and adapted to the presence of wolves..
    NZ plants evolved with things that ate them......look at a lancewood tree young n old...it changes once it gets above about 6' high as do many other plants...there is a wheelbarrow word for these plants....

    if we use the MT Cook lily as example and want to preserve it for all forever (and rightly so) ring fence off some areas....its exactly the same as preditor free 2050 its not going to happen it CANT happen.....but its entirely feasible to create small or even quite large areas with out animals of any type inside them. we K1W1s have been doing it in one form or another for generations.
    way back in 1900 and nuts n bolts the old forest service had exclusion plots to MONITOR what grew without animals eating them.....

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by stug View Post
    You can argue that deer fill the ecological niche that moas occupied, but I donít know if moa would have been grazing the areas that tahr are now grazing.
    There would be very scientists that would argue tahr give a benefit to the ecosystem. It is more an argument about what number of tahr can the ecosystem support without the ecosystem being too damaged.
    You could argue that deer fill the ecological niche that moas occupied... but that theory has well and truely been debunct by science..
    https://predatorfreenz.org/moa-vs-de...-so-different/

    I do agree however there would be very few scientists IF ANY that would agree tahr give any benefit to the ecosystem. Your last sentence .. the key word is "too" damaged. Its all about the numbers or density.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by berg243 View Post
    my comment about balance was not about stoats them and rats and mice need to be controlled to the lowest number possible .what i was meaning was in how animals interact with the environment and how they can benefit others like a certain amount of deer grazing in the takahe area that open up the lower story to produce fresh sprouting plants for the takahe to graze. take the deer away and the plants grow up and fresh plants for takahe are limited to only areas that have tree fall or slips. but until proper unbiased scientific study is done into the whole ecosystem and all the interactions between animals and plants termination of browsing animals may actually cause more problems. if i get to go Tahr hunting i will look at taking nannies or young animals as well as a bull if i can find one as i would rather take them for meat than they be shot to just be left to rot. i think hunters must look at overall numbers and start to manage them by taking a broader range of age and sex rather than just mature bulls.
    Read this ....

    https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/reso...eats-to-takahe


    Now tell me again how takahe benefit from red deer .

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky Duck View Post
    NZ plants evolved with things that ate them......look at a lancewood tree young n old...it changes once it gets above about 6' high as do many other plants...there is a wheelbarrow word for these plants....

    if we use the MT Cook lily as example and want to preserve it for all forever (and rightly so) ring fence off some areas....its exactly the same as preditor free 2050 its not going to happen it CANT happen.....but its entirely feasible to create small or even quite large areas with out animals of any type inside them. we K1W1s have been doing it in one form or another for generations.
    way back in 1900 and nuts n bolts the old forest service had exclusion plots to MONITOR what grew without animals eating them.....
    see my replies above...

  7. #112
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    Climate alteration and the reduction of glaciers is probably of similar significance to the decline of plants in the alpine region as thar and chamois - as well as bloody hoppers of various flavours and accents.

    Removal of glaciers is creating a significant rockfall hazard and that is reshaping the environment as well. Removing thar from certain areas won't save plants but it might make the extinction take a few more years. Guess that's worth it to a few people.
    Moa Hunter likes this.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moa Hunter View Post
    There is no doubt that animals in excess cause damage. Have Tahr actually caused localised extinction or permanent decline of any plant species ?
    Grazing animals can be of benefit by transferring nutrients and providing a dispersive nursery for plants with and in their dung just as birds perform this task in the bush.
    This is a link that I have posted before but it is well worth watching several times https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savo...ge?language=en
    A bit long but worth every second. Watch it. A perfect conversation to have with people pushing veganism "to feed/save the planet".
    outdoorlad likes this.
    "I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book." Groucho Marx

  9. #114
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    Cheers Cordite..I would like to see our dear Ms Sage be made to view that vid along with all the Twig n Tweet clan.
    And those being brainwashed in schooling.Very sad.
    Moa Hunter likes this.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser308 View Post
    Climate alteration and the reduction of glaciers is probably of similar significance to the decline of plants in the alpine region as thar and chamois - as well as bloody hoppers of various flavours and accents.

    Removal of glaciers is creating a significant rockfall hazard and that is reshaping the environment as well. Removing thar from certain areas won't save plants but it might make the extinction take a few more years. Guess that's worth it to a few people.
    Got a link to that or is it your guess ?

    A

  11. #116
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    So at what altitude did moa roam to . And I take it when the moa roamed the bush it would have been
    a lot more open than it is now . With those great bloody hoofs it would have been like a herd of pigs
    had been rooting . I don't know relly did they get around in herds .

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by sore head stoat View Post
    see my replies above...
    I will if you will....tell me Im incorrect in saying you can preserve any plant species for the future by using exclusion plots.....
    tell me you CANT agree that its a hell of a lot easier ,cheaper and more achievable to fence of areas and rid them of pests and keep them out...than it would be to try to do so on anything larger....north island or south island.....
    and when you get rid of gorse on all public land....and I mean ALL....well then we talk again about keeping animals out of same...sound fair to you???
    ariki, chainsaw and Moa Hunter like this.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by sore head stoat View Post
    Read this ....

    https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/reso...eats-to-takahe


    Now tell me again how takahe benefit from red deer .
    Well they WERE rediscovered by an avid hunter and founding member of NZDA Dr Geoff Orbell MBE so no deer no discovery for extra protection?
    Micky Duck and hebe like this.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky Duck View Post
    NZ plants evolved with things that ate them......look at a lancewood tree young n old...it changes once it gets above about 6' high as do many other plants...there is a wheelbarrow word for these plants....
    If you believe in evolution, genetic mutations are the so called 'engine' of evolution. But mutations are coding errors within the DNA code and arise by random chance, either by insertion, deletion, or duplication. It's now widely understood that a single sequence of DNA is actually the instruction manual for multiple cellular functions, not just a single function (ie. the same code has multiple meanings). So if you break the code, you inherently break the language to multiple cellular processes. Therefore, not only does a mutation need to be randomly selected for (by chance) but in this case, needs to be a beneficial mutation. But there is no increase in genetic information here, it's still a loss. So I guess my point is this... If the lancewood did evolve as you suggest, it didn't do this knowingly, or in a response to the moa grazing it. But by pure luck, and the 100+ years that deer have been grazing in our landscape would not be considered sufficient to rely on random chance selecting for a beneficial mutation. Most mutations are actually repaired by the intricate repair systems within the cells. Something to consider.
    Moa Hunter, kbrebs and mimms2 like this.

  15. #120
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    hmmmm interesting BUT if that was in fact the case...would you not find lancewoods that WERENT that way????
    there are many NZ native plants that do it...mingimingi is a horrible tangled bush/schrub...why???if not to prevent it being heavily browsed???
    my thoughts is the mutation just WORKED for plant so those plants continued to grow and breed in face of pressure and the less well protected ones didnt....no different to species of plants that taste good get eaten so the not so tasty ones are more abundant....the bitterness EG pepperwood is a defence...someone/somewhere somehow /something decided it was good for the pepperwood to taste bitter....no need if there wasnt browsing pressure.

    why does bush lawyer vines have thorns???
    Im typing this looking at a grisellinia/broadleaf trees on neighbours side of the fence....its highly palatable but grows prolifically so survives under pressure....where I hunt there are some mature trees of this that are close to a meter in diametre.....lovely to see them,in clearing that gets hammered by deer and has been for at least the last 60 years....plants can survive...if they are that precious,stick a fence around them...but if you twig ntwitter types believe it is that important...you best be putting on your homespun cargigans and going to visit them....and dont forget to kill all the gorse on the way...dont forget electric puha/hooch/wackyweed is introduced too now....must kill ALL those plants,so is lentils,mung beans and celery.
    Last edited by Micky Duck; 02-08-2020 at 12:27 PM.
    blake, chainsaw and Moa Hunter like this.

 

 

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