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Thread: What is a "miss"

  1. #1
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    What is a "miss"

    The other evening I took a new hunter out for a shot on a farm. Right on dark we came across three deer out in a paddock, we were able to get within 140 metres and he had a post to use as a rest. He was using a 308, with my reloads, a 165 gn speer at 2580 fps.

    He lined up on a big spiker, with a clear instruction to aim right above its front leg. At his shot I heard the clear sound of the "hit" but the spiker didn't even flinch, and started towards us. Being a bit worried about losing so much nice venison I shot it again and it went down so I swung onto another one and dropped it too. Yahoo two deer for the freezer.

    The truck was a long way away and it was by now dark, so I sent my mate off to get it and proceeded to rip the guts out of the deer. The big spiker was in super condition, and my shot had gone through the top of the lungs, missing the shoulder and the backsteaks - yahoo indeed. All the gutbag was intact.

    My mate was a bit peed off as there was no apparent second bullet hole, and he thought he might have missed. However the sound of a hit is pretty clear so even though I had doubts I reminded him he'd hit it.

    A few days later we skun them out, and bugger me, here is a bullet hole high on the neck of the spiker, in the meaty part just in front of the shoulder - how the hell did that not drop it, and where is the exit?? The neck was a bit bloody and bruised where I'd cut its throat - maybe I didn't notice the exit in tyhe dark and cut through it.

    So last night we boned out. My mate was doing a hind leg and reckoned there was a bullet hole in it - bugger off I said, can't be. Well who looked a mug when he pulled out the remains of a slug - yup, a 30 cal flat base just like a speer. I just weighed it, 105 gns.

    So somehow, the deer was shot more or less front on, "right above his front leg". the bullet traversed the whole body, missing all bone (there was some bruising in one shoulder, and a little bit to the fillets) missing all organs and the gut, and finished up deep in its hind leg. I guess you can't fault the bullet for weight retention and penetration . . . . but what a "miss". I don't know that it would have gone a long way if it hadn't been plugged again but who would know, certainly didn't seem to have any major organ damage.

    All the above, maybe some of those misses are not misses at all !!

  2. #2
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    Yeah, seen that sort of thing a few times. They are theoretically dead but show no effects. They run into the bush and you think you have missed, little or no blood trail to follow up, then you find them dead a couple of days later when they start to smell. I have also seen kills that should not have happened through hits in the wrong place (both on animals and people) where tiny shards of bullet or bone traverse the body cavity and nick a vital organ.

  3. #3
    Almost literate. veitnamcam's Avatar
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    Yep strange shit happens sometimes. including the bullet somehow turning almost 90 degrees inside the animal.
    "Hunting and fishing" fucking over licenced firearms owners since ages ago.

  4. #4
    Member Micky Duck's Avatar
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    cant fault a projectile that travels that far and holds together. good old reliable speers. bet the young fella feels better about his shooting.

  5. #5
    Member oneshot's Avatar
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    The spiker has super powers and cannot feel any pain.
    veitnamcam likes this.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

  6. #6
    Member Sideshow's Avatar
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    Nar tell him it went in at the back leg and out at the neck
    YosemiteSam likes this.
    It's all fun and games till Darthvader comes along
    I respect your beliefs but don't impose them on me.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by veitnamcam View Post
    Yep strange shit happens sometimes. including the bullet somehow turning almost 90 degrees inside the animal.
    I shot a hare with my 223 62grn soft point ammo. It was sitting up on a fence line as they do and i was around 250yards from it. Smacked it centre of chest and bullet entered then headed 90 drgree south and blew its tail off.

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  8. #8
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    I had a deer that I shot with a 150 grain .30/06 on the shoulder. The deer was facing nearly side on. Solid hit, but it didn't move. It just looked at me. I was nonplussed to be sure. I shot it again and it dropped. When I got to it I had two bullet holes within a couple of inches of each other. One had gone directly through and wrecked the engine room, but the first shot had hit the animal, turned to the right, traversed the body and ended up in the rear haunch muscle under the hide.

    That was the end of the theory of foot pounds of energy being any kind of measurement of killing power as far as I was concerned.
    viper likes this.

  9. #9
    Member Pengy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway View Post
    I had a deer that I shot with a 150 grain .30/06 on the shoulder. The deer was facing nearly side on. Solid hit, but it didn't move. It just looked at me. I was nonplussed to be sure. I shot it again and it dropped. When I got to it I had two bullet holes within a couple of inches of each other. One had gone directly through and wrecked the engine room, but the first shot had hit the animal, turned to the right, traversed the body and ended up in the rear haunch muscle under the hide.

    That was the end of the theory of foot pounds of energy being any kind of measurement of killing power as far as I was concerned.
    Out of curiousity, have you done the math on the retained foot lb at the shooting distance involved. Just curious.
    Forgotmaboltagain+1

  10. #10
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    Around 1750 ft pounds retained at 200 metres. Nearly two tons of power! as they like to say in articles about it. Totally absorbed the entire lot and just stood there. I think it flicked one ear, probably at the noise of the shot.

    Considering I can shoot lengthwise through a deer with a 44-40 and kill it as dead as a .270 would, with only 400 ft pounds at the muzzle, I feel it is safe to say the energy theory is totally imaginary. Yet the UK and some US states base minimum legal cartridges on the concept. You might as well measure how much noise the shot makes for all the good it is worth.

    I have also seen a stag shot four times with a .300 Win Mag that never flinched or showed any reaction to any of the shots either, he kept trotting along and roaring as he did so. Until I dropped it with a .30-30.

    Energy measurements make impressive figures, but this measurement is misleading. A foot pound is how much energy it takes to lift a pound, a foot off the ground. That is fine. It takes 2200 foot pounds to propel a 150 grain bullet at 2900 feet per second. That is also fine. But the energy figure is not a measurement of killing power or anything remotely like it; no more than the velocity figure is.

    Some food for thought: My .243 and a 100 grain bullet will generate 1900 ft pounds. My .45-70 at black powder velocities with a 405 grain bullet will generate 1000 ftpounds. Yet one was used to destroy a million buffalo, and the other still has internet regular postings from people arguing about whether it's good enough to kill a deer with.
    Last edited by Carlsen Highway; 22-04-2018 at 01:58 AM.

  11. #11
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    I’m a fan of the whole big bullet slow for deer as well,have gone to cast 280g flat nose in the .44 mag running quite a bit slower than the 240g hollow points I was using ,I fin penetration is the key,2 holes leave a better blood trail and seem to kill better I have found,same with the subsonics in my .22,they hit with a solid whack and seem to kill the rabbits dead on the spot where the hyper velocity ones seem to zip thru and the rabbit runs off to die.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway View Post
    Around 1750 ft pounds retained at 200 metres. Nearly two tons of power! as they like to say in articles about it. Totally absorbed the entire lot and just stood there. I think it flicked one ear, probably at the noise of the shot.

    Considering I can shoot lengthwise through a deer with a 44-40 and kill it as dead as a .270 would, with only 400 ft pounds at the muzzle, I feel it is safe to say the energy theory is totally imaginary. Yet the UK and some US states base minimum legal cartridges on the concept. You might as well measure how much noise the shot makes for all the good it is worth.

    I have also seen a stag shot four times with a .300 Win Mag that never flinched or showed any reaction to any of the shots either, he kept trotting along and roaring as he did so. Until I dropped it with a .30-30.

    Energy measurements make impressive figures, but this measurement is misleading. A foot pound is how much energy it takes to lift a pound, a foot off the ground. That is fine. It takes 2200 foot pounds to propel a 150 grain bullet at 2900 feet per second. That is also fine. But the energy figure is not a measurement of killing power or anything remotely like it; no more than the velocity figure is.

    Some food for thought: My .243 and a 100 grain bullet will generate 1900 ft pounds. My .45-70 at black powder velocities with a 405 grain bullet will generate 1000 ftpounds. Yet one was used to destroy a million buffalo, and the other still has internet regular postings from people arguing about whether it's good enough to kill a deer with.
    Projectile construction plays a major part.
    A FMJ will not transfer the same energy to an animal as the same weight and speed "constructed for the job" hunting projectile will. But on paper they both generate the same energy.
    Overkill is still dead.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7mmwsm View Post
    Projectile construction plays a major part.
    A FMJ will not transfer the same energy to an animal as the same weight and speed "constructed for the job" hunting projectile will. But on paper they both generate the same energy.
    The problem with the whole energy and bullet construction debate is that paper calcs do little to establish the level of energy 'transferred to the animal'. 5,000 f/lb of energy is a waste of space if only 800f/lb is transferred to the animal when it is hit and the rest remains with the projectile as it flys on through. That's why shot placement is so important.

    I shot with a 44mag for the first part of my hunting life and to this day the killing power of the 240gr projectile traveling slow and barely carrying 1,000f/lb of energy dropped every animal on the spot. It's killing effectiveness was far superior to the paper stats.

    Currently my bush gun is a 7.62x39 and it's the same. 9 out of 10 deer have the projectile sitting under the off side skin - no excess or wasted energy and DRT.
    Micky Duck likes this.

  14. #14
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    The arguement for and against high velocity small cal versus large bore low velocity has been around since 1900 or so.
    The british always claimed that a large bullet is more deadly it is presumably an opinion based on shooting a variety of calibres at things intent on eating, trampling, or in some other way ruining your day. The small bore hv crowd who are good at maths point out that fast little things have more impact energy so are better.
    Its really about transferring that energy. Hydraulic shock is believed to be a major factor with high velocity projectiles, the pressure wave set up disrupts the surrounding tissue and nerveshowever below a certain speed 2400 fpsI think this wont happen and the projectile makes a just a leaky hole. How often have you had animals go down instantly without movement only to start struggling to rise several seconds to a minute later,I assume this is as the shock wears off.
    The big slow bullet makes a bigger wound channel and if bone is involved appears to cause much more damage.
    I hunt with both cast lead projectiles and hv, my preference for close range and bush hunting up to 100 maybe 150 max is a big arse lead bullet. For anything longer hv is my go to.
    A bit waffley but the knee is giving me grief today after yesterdays activity and Im bored
    40mm likes this.

  15. #15
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    The only deer I've shot with my 416 dropped like a stone. no kicking nothing.
    Didn't do much to it either-through the front chest on slight angle, hole through a lung, raked across couple of ribs and out. I can guarantee you that it didn't drop much of the nearly 4000ftlbs of energy in to the deer and probably didn't mushroom much, but was very indicative of the last few comments and why a lot of older American chaps liked the bigger bullets going slower. big hole in, big(ger) hole out with lots of space to let daylight and blood intermingle.

 

 

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