That and the question of "Organic" is a whole other discussion we can have around a camp fire one night Gibo. "Organic Beef" pfffft, of course it is fucking organic, it lives and breathes. (We need a fuck me dead emoticon).
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I have no dog in this fight , but always assumed that " free range " meant "public land" accessible to all ?
Ken
I read it as the free range farm she shot the stag on was 500km away from the fenced farm in the lower south
Red being the 250,000 acre free range hunting blue being the 3000 acre gamepark
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this is just a rough idea I have no idea where the property's are
yup toby, got that part, i was commenting on the "hundreds of km to closest game farm" nonsense.. yeah right, no game farms near aorangi, nelson, kaikoura etc, haha.
the guy might have access to 250K acre (if you add all the properties together), but how large was the actual block (or maybe I should say paddock) she shot the deer in ? :D
The other thing is that the guide also offers estate hunts, so what, he's got this little mecca of free range 100's of miles from his farmed stuff and anyone elses? I'd think it'd be more likely he has the deer farm at (X) and bordering it literally on the fence line is (Y) a property with a less high fence (free range apparently!)
Free range or no though the only reason this would be number one is because its scored using a system that (basiccally) only guides taking Americans use, other than that, the Southern Hemisphere is Douglas Score. You want to get a true measurement of the head score it in Douglas and compare it to its cohort, being the other animals taken in the same country.
I realise SCI is international, but its pretty much America's own international scoring system when they go somewhere else because they can't use B&C and P&Y.
What this hunt has done is essentially the same as me going to the USA, shooting a 2 year old 4pt mule deer, scoring it in Douglas and claiming it as a world record.
I do have to agree with the comments here though, true free range hunting should be deer that can be hunted fair and square by anyone. Hunt on private with no fences but where you have exclusive access - there is still a boundary albeit invisible that segregates you from others and who can hunt where. That's why I never used "free range" in my personal life until very recently (in the past year) because I hunt mostly private property where its just me, my brother and my old man that can hunt there pretty much. Not really free range if its us or no one that can shoot them. I call them simply "wild deer", because thats what they are, but then the lines get muddied again, what if you have a huge high fenced area like some properties in NZ with 100s 1000s acres where the deer live and breed essentially wild and free and are fearful of humans? Isn't that wild?
This politics and contradiction crap is why I hunt only for me, I personally wouldnt hunt in small pens, (though I have no issues with people that like to as long as they arent trying to pass it off as anything else) but for the most part I don't care whether its public or private or whatever as long as I'm enjoying it and having fun and that the animals if they outwit me can get away. But as soon as you start putting a label on something, along the lines of "I've taken a world record" then you need to be able to back it up.
That's part of the reason why I don't score my heads, having blokes whinging and arguing over an 1/8" here and 1/6" there, and debating whether to score a tine because iy is a couple of degrees in the wrong direction and crap like that. The measure of a trophy for me is in the blood, sweat and tears that have been put into getting them, the antlers sure are important and I refuse to shoot a stag I know I'll do nothing with just for the sake of shooting him but they're really secondary to the hunt and effort gone into it.
At the end of the day though as much as I love venison I'm first and foremost a trophy hunter and because of that I love big deer and love seeing big deer other people take. (My favourites are big old heads as opposed to high scoring heads, nothing beats an old battler).
But a deer you shoot is what it is and I see people like Phillip who shot his first Sika hind last year and Scouser with his 8pt stag this year and I loved how excited they were and obviously truthful. But if you have to make one lie or exaggeration about your deer to make it seem better than what it is, whether its adding score, claiming it as "free range hundreds of miles from anywhere" or making an easy hunt into something gruelling then you obviously dont respect the animal for what it is and you didnt deserve to have it die at your hands.
For example, my fallow buck I shot with my bow last year will probably be the best I ever shoot but I didnt need to make up any elaborate lie about the hunt, I rocked up Friday after work, sat on a game trail and within an hour or so he walked up to 35m from me and I shot him, the hunt doesn't rank amongst my most grueling or strategical best but it and the animal are what they are and I'm not ashamed of that.
I realise at times I've had strong opinions here, but that's all they are, my opinions, and just like arseholes, we all have em and they're all different so keep pinging off your own.
I will comment to BarnesLady on one thing though - I love Barnes, particularly the TTSX and will never stop reloading them BUT I contacted you guys with a fairly simple question last year and never heard anything back, bit disappointing on the customer service side of things though aside from that, they're the best hunting bullets in the world in my opinion.
All fair comment BH
Having hunted Australia as well, I'm pretty sure I was hunting NZ. The plane did land in Christchurch and we drove north, but there are no land bridges from NZ to Aussie that I'm aware of? If you call that much acreage of cattle and sheep stations "high fence" then it might be you're a bit vertically challenged? Just because it's on private land, does not mean it is not "free range". By definition, free range animals can be taken on public or private land. The bottom line is that those red deer where I hunted can leave the station any time they want. They are not "fenced in". That is the definition of high fenced hunting - if the animal can leave the property on its own, it is "free range". Any fences on that place for the cattle and sheep can definitely be cleared by a red deer. You may have personal opinions to the contrary, and I will respect that, but for the books and professionally this defines free range vs. high fence.
Now, let's all be friends and play nice. I hope some of you are Barnes fans???
BH, your opinions are indeed strong, and frankly I very much appreciate your honesty. I completely agree with you that SCI is pretty much America's own scoring system, but again, I have always been forthright and claimed the stag as what it is: the SCI free range world record. And that is the truth. Guys, realize as well that I have hunted for all of these years not only because I love to hunt and enjoy venison, but also for business purposes. I would like to post a story as related to me by my father, Randy Brooks, for a past edition of the online Barnes Club-X Newsletter:
The late, great Col. Charles Askins was an old and very dear friend of mine who taught me an invaluable lesson. Our relationship goes back to the early days when Coni and I were still learning the ropes about how to run a bullet business. Charlie called me up one day to order some of our old Barnes Original 416 caliber FMJ’s. He told me that he had killed 80 buffalo and was on his way to 100. I was flattered when he said Barnes Bullets would be used to accomplish this task, and promptly sent the package to him.
I received another call shortly thereafter from Charlie. He said “Boy, I didn’t order hollow-points, I ordered full metal jackets.” I explained to him that the bullets were made from tubing and swaged closed at both ends, leaving a small pin-hole in the nose to give the appearance of a small hollow-point. I assured him they would work well on dangerous game. This was a bullet Fred Barnes began building in the ‘30s and hunters had been using them in Africa for years with great success. He politely listened to my entire sales pitch, and when I was done, he said “Listen Boy, how many buffalo have you shot?”
His question caught me way off guard because I hadn’t taken any! I was embarrassed, and realized that although I was telling a seasoned veteran how well this bullet would perform, I had absolutely no personal experience to back up my statement. What gave me the right? So, I answered him honestly and said “None.” He replied, in true Charlie Askins fashion, “Well, I don’t want a horn up my ass!” I was speechless because he had me cold. I realized that I was nothing more than a salesman at that point in regards to Barnes Bullets’ performance on dangerous game. When our conversation was finished I hung up the phone, turned to Coni and said something to the effect of “That’s the last time I’ll have a conversation with anybody where my experience is called into question.” Within a few months, I was in Africa and had shot three Cape buffalo and an elephant. From that year forward I spent a minimum of 100 days a year in the field, hunting all types of game.
The reason I shared that story is to illustrate that Barnes builds excellent products because we use our bullets on a large variety of game the world over, and can speak to bullet performance based on experience. We do our best to get the word out about our experience to let hunter's know what they can expect on game they pursue, promote the product and promote the brand. That's the business side. I will also say that growing up, Barnes Bullets was like another child at our dinner table. Our family is passionate about this company and its products, and we would never intentionally do anything to damage the reputation we worked so hard for so many years to build. All that said, we hunt for ourselves as well with no company involvement or promotion. Last year, my absolute favorite hunt was our own Utah mule deer season. In Utah, we must draw mule deer tags. My husband, oldest son and I (luckily) all drew out. The season spans two weekends, so the first weekend I hunted with my son. He took a respectable muley trophy. His wife and my two grandkids were there to celebrate a successful hunt with us. Afterwards, I headed to the high country to meet up with my husband. He took a respectable muley as well. We hunted hard the rest of the week for me. I put a tough stalk on a huge buck and blew him out of his bed within bow range. It was so exciting!!! My husband watched the whole thing from atop a knoll - he said he could barely stand to sit still as he watched me get that close to a buck of a lifetime. Oh well, that's hunting, and we had a blast.
There will always be those with differing opinions from ourselves. As I said, I'm ok with that as long as we do it in a respectful manner and everyone's voice can be heard. I thank you for hearing mine, and wish you all good hunting, no matter your ideas about what hunting is to you - as long as it is ethical and promotes our sport in a positive way. Being one of the faces of Barnes, and for the love and preservation of the sport, I endeavor to do that very thing.
Barnes Lady, it is a sign of maturity that people can hold differing opinions and agree to disagree and then get on with it. In the instance of SCI's definition of free range I happen to disagree but let that not prevent me from welcoming you to our wonderful forum. Your posts thus far have been frank and balanced and I look forward to your future contributions.
I'd use barnes projectiles if they didn't cost so much
I bought a box of Barnes for the 223 soon after I started reloading. They shoot sub MORA (minute of rats arse) and I thought then the best thing ever until I saw they were basically double the price of the next best.
There is nothing free range about that animal at all.
It was taken in an area that has never produced a stag close to that quality until deer farming or game parks started showing up.
Shoot one like that out of the Olivine, Cascade or Aspiring areas like a couple have in the last 10 years and that is true non influenced free range hunting. Getting some random bits of Nz bush caught in your barrel channel would be impressive as well.
You paid serious money to have exclusive rights as far as access and rights to shoot it.
Not my idea of free range either.
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In the US there is a sizable amount of public land that is fenced and used for grazing. There is public land interspersed with private land. There is no way of knowing whether your trophy jumped over a public fence or a private one.
A private land holder cannot round up the deer on his property,that would be illegal. The animals are free to move off of his land. By some hunter's definitions it seems they would be free range animals when on public land and not free range when they cross onto private land. I do not believe it is the owner of the land that makes a deer free range or not , but rather the height of the fence.
This one Rushy.
Plenty of stations where the back fence is actually just a ridge or a god damned range. There is also plenty of stations that have harder ground than I'd normally hunt.
In fact I know of one where there is tahr (outside the tahr area) I'll pay for you to come down and shoot an animal on it. The tip? Good luck. You might not like going from 500 metres to 1500. But there's a back fence you say, yep, that fucker is down by the road at 600 metres. It's still all part of a station so it's not free range. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I can take you to dozens and dozens of places like this.
Barnes Lady,
Fiordland next April, consider this an official invite. :D The heads are crap, but man alive do you earn them, and everything is pretty well shot at bow range.
Hmmm, clearly we have completely different views on the matter and as Barnes Lady generously acknowledges, it is fine for that to be the case. It comes down to which definition you subscribe to Wirehunt. For me any genetic influence in the animal from the intervention of man (selective breeding influence) rules the animal out of my definition of free range (as does its being taken on private land. No amount of debate will cause me to ever change my view on that. Thanks for the offer of the trip by the way. I just might take you up on that one day.
So the only free range deer you will shoot is doc land? As soon as you step foot on private land its not free range??? Even if thw private land doesnt have a deer fence in sight? :ORLY:
Agree Rushy, if i cant hunt it for 'free', free meaning i dont have to pay the land owner for the privilege of shooting it and paying extra for every point on its head, then its not free range,
It has been protected to grow that old and sprout those monstrous racks, so 'some' rich bastard can come and drop it.......I dont care how big the property is @Wirehunt or how long they took to drive over there in the landy.....just my 2c
Speaking for myself only. For me to class an animal as a trophy it must have been able to be taken by anybody else. Not paid for and taken on private property where only a select few have access.
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Yep. That is my opinion. I acknowledge that others feel differently and I am comfortable with that. For the record, if I am after venison, I will shoot deer anywhere I find them, that is legal for me to shoot at the time. I am also equally happy to not pull the trigger for any one of a multitude of reasons.
I'm with Rushy 100%. Free range is an animal that hasn't been interfered with in any way to benefit the hunter. Selective breeding or selected access ie. private land. That's what me and mine believe anyway.
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What if someone just owns a large parcel of land and only lets his mates/family hunt on it but at no cost (just doesnt want people all over their shit) and has some untouched (in the last few generations at least) animals roving around? youd have to consider those free range
Hi Haggie, what constitutes 'large' in 'large parcel of land'?.....if the land owner leaves a certain stag he 'owns' that has symmetrical antlers, he then leaves it
to age long enough to grow 'royals' then shoots it and proclaims 'Free range Douglas score NZ record'....i would laugh in his face and say hes full of shit.....
Thats what this discussion is about, take away these misleading terms of 'free range & wild deer'....has the trophy stag in question been left alone for a long enough period to become a world class trophy, because they rarely exist on DOC land
they have (the majority) been shot out in consecutive years during 'Roars'....all these monster stags you see in hunting magazines with a smiling grey haired yank are on 'private property'..........just like the lady in question......again just my 2c
Hmmm.......I think you twisting my words a bit here...........'By your definition that means he's no longer free range'..............there is no guarantee that the 'good bugger' will 'bag him' next year when he has a better rack because he is on DOC land, free for all to shoot any time of the year......
on private land he is kept aside, till the guy/gal with the big wallet comes along....that is what i am trying to get across, i dont care how big /small the station/property is, he has been SELECTED for a special purpose....a 'trophy head'....and more importantly 'CASH'
Agree to disagree.
Im not talking about anybody paying any money or any game preserve. Im talking about joe bloggs going over to his mates sheep farm and bagging a cracker stag on the edge of a doc block. Just so happens the stag walked 100m onto the private side....
Still not free range enough?
Dont really want to wade in on this but.... my two cents.
I hunt public, private and public that borders private that i can also access, I work just as hard for most of the private stuff as I do for public land animals, none of the private access is crawling with deer, what id call a natural level of animals and it hasnt been influenced by outside genes...yet.
I would consider a good stag from these private areas as genuine free range animal and would feel no different from shooting it on public land.
I can understand where people are coming from with these managed high country station's that have heap of animals and farm genes in them, although it can be hardish hunting it simply dont count.
What im getting at is that alot of this backcountry private land is just as hard to hunt as public and with as few animals, and its amazing how many of these cockies will let you on, if you just turn up and ask. Just dont turn up as a camo clad ballbag.
Its going to get harder to get these big genuine wild stags in the future, with all the escapees round, soon it will take a very remote stag to be wild blood.
That and the helicopters can fuck off.
Another one for you scouser. What about the joker that uses a chopper to get right up into some big country that would not be accessed by foot. Is this still free range? Or not because not everyone can afford a chopper to get there?
I got a big fat pile of CASH for my big fat two year old Private Block beefies the other day. The one I kept was shot through the fence ..
They too were selected for a purpose !!
What's the difference between that and the above.. These had no hope in hell of getting away.. The deer on private blocks surely don't just walk up and say shoot me ??
Its what we all do in one form or another. Spend your money your way.. Others will do the same. Who cares you just need to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be sure if you choose to go to private blocks you act with respect and no wastage,, :thumbsup: :D
I would consider that free range because of the circumstances you have explained, the animal in question was 'born' in the wild on DOC land and just happened to be shot on 'private land'....i think were getting away from the jist of this thread
Which is....drum roll please......Do the forum members consider a 'Douglas, SCI or any other organisation Trophy head, as a real, free range (as in ANYBODY can shoot it, not paying clients) Stag.....thats the simple question, although as we have all
seen there are many ways of looking at it....i think by now my position on this subject is well known & clear...if theres a vote and im in the minority, so be it, just want to sound out the members for their honest opinion, cheers
If he/she shoots the stag, do they have to pay for it?....or are they choppered into DOC land like loads of hunters are at present for the roar, im not going on about 'access', im going on about 'selected large trophy stags that are kept for paying clients'
if you cant understand the difference between the two sides of the argument:
1) an overseas client bragging "look at me ive just shot a world record free range stag" and
2) you typical kiwi hunter who saves up for his/her once a year 'roar hunt'
then we will get nowhere with this discussion, do you see what im trying to say here?
Hi Happy, i have no 'beef' (pardon the pun) with what you've done.....but your not going public with your photo next to the beast with 'World SCI free range record' above your smiling dial....the lady in question (and that is what this thread is all about) IS.......