223 mag box length

Hi, didnt want to hi jack the other thread,

reading the "223 on deer thread" got me thinking, I am after a light 223 for rabbits and targets, thinking either a x-bolt super light carbon or a reminton model 7 with hs precision stock shorten to 16-17 inches. I want to run the longer heavier bullets every one is mentioning and I noticed gimp is running a special mag box.

Is the Remington mag box to short to load heavy long bullets ? Any one able measure the x-bolt mag box for me? I believe the standard model 7 box is 60mm.

What sort of over all load length are you ending up with with the 77 and 80 grainers

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rusl

Hi, didnt want to hi jack the other thread,

reading the "223 on deer thread" got me thinking, I am after a light 223 for rabbits and targets, thinking either a x-bolt super light carbon or a reminton model 7 with hs precision stock shorten to 16-17 inches. I want to run the longer heavier bullets every one is mentioning and I noticed gimp is running a special mag box.

Is the Remington mag box to short to load heavy long bullets ? Any one able measure the x-bolt mag box for me? I believe the standard model 7 box is 60mm.

What sort of over all load length are you ending up with with the 77 and 80 grainers

Thanks

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If you use a Model 7 the 1/9 factory twist barrel will be the limiting factor for heavier bullets over 69 grn (gimp changed his). Not sure of the Browning twist. Tikka do a 1/8 which shoots them well but you are limited to 2.3' OAL unless you replace the bottom metal and mag (Hardy has them I think) or Greg on here can modify a Tikka mag.

The alternative for a short mag 1/8 twist is to use the 77grn Serra TMK which are designed for short AR mags so work seated in to Tikka mag length. They work very well and thats what I have done.

and for rabbits at 200-250 you can easily use the awesome 50 grn-55grn range of projectiles out there and OAL isnt going to be issue.....also if you looking to shoot targets or longer range sniping of bunnies...single loading that super sleak heavy projectile load isnt going to be a huge hassle... think 90% of the job rifle will do....sub 250 yard and put up with the other 10% where you will have time to single load.... as Tahr has said there are options for shorter heavy projectiles that will work.

All factory mag boxes will allow a SAAMI COAL of 2.250" or 59mm +/-.

If you want to run heavies and your chambering allows for it (long throat / freebore) then you get additional performance by seating said heavies out a little further.

Tikka's are renowned for long throats and the mags can be elongated using a Dremel and some sandpaper.

If you are going to run a shorter barrel, I think this will negate the additional performance you are expecting.

My last howa mini with a 16" barrel ran the 77 SMK belmont OFC load at 2550 fps.

My current 223 is 18" with a can and I'm expecting 2600 fps 'ish'.

Attachment 156488

Accurate Mag .223 AICS mags can be modified to allow more or less any OAL you like. 55gr factory round for scale on top of 80gr handloads. Seating a long 80gr out 6 or 7mm longer than a shorter mag allows gives a lot more case capacity

Just seated a dummy 75 gr BTHP at 2.418 and will fit in my x-bolt mag. Might be able to make them a few thou longer. Don't know whether it will chamber that long though, just haven't checked.

Thanks for the input, I guess I need to think about why I want the heavy bullets, I was thinking better bc and less wind drift, which is why I'm going to a 223 from my 17hmr, got sick of the wind blowing it away.

Thinking it through its sounding like it will be quite a custom rifle and I'm starting to wonder why I don't just do some thing like load my 308 with 110gr v max's for windy or longer shooting days and have a simple stock 223 for 0-200m sort of shots.

Sounds like a bog standard 243 would do the trick too
Boring I know but it effortlessly does what the 223 has to work hard for and even in a light set up the recoil is negligible
Just incase a suitable model7 243 pops up in the search for a the 223

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rusl

Thanks for the input, I guess I need to think about why I want the heavy bullets, I was thinking better bc and less wind drift, which is why I'm going to a 223 from my 17hmr, got sick of the wind blowing it away.

Thinking it through its sounding like it will be quite a custom rifle and I'm starting to wonder why I don't just do some thing like load my 308 with 110gr v max's for windy or longer shooting days and have a simple stock 223 for 0-200m sort of shots.

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I finally got a 223 about six months ago and have been having fun setting it up to be a light, easy to shoot hunting rifle.

I settled on a Howa 1500 short action(not the Mini) for a few reasons, a big one being I despise the plastic magazine well/trigger guard/detachable box magazines they come with. This decision process predated the Jefferson bottom metal flush magazines and the Ken Henderson Hi-Tec stocks becoming available for the Mini.

Another consideration was that when I looked at the conventional internal double stack magazine in the Howa, it seemed quite simple to be able to modify the blocked magazine box (was about 2.35 previous if I recall) to accept rounds loaded to around 2.46 or so. This was combined with the 1500 having arrived in NZ in Jan 20 finally sporting the 1/8 twist! And the last factor was the Howa Alpine stock (very slim and light proportions, shortish foreend) I had scored a few months prior just sitting there waiting for a barreled action to be acquired.

I had the barrel trimmed slightly so the Gunworks 35mm suppressor cleared the foreend - barrel ended up at 18.5 inches.i could have gone shorter (didn't feel any need to ) by using a DPT or the Gunworks 41mm suppressor as the over-barrel section is much shorter on those.

Next step - hunting loads. Short version is the Hornady 53g V-Max was selected for initial experimentation as its BC is much higher than most projectiles in that weight range. A bit of experimentation found a load that shot nice groups at 3140 fps. Game on. Go shoot some wallabies! This load works devastatingly well. Anything this side of 300m is in big trouble provided the wind isn't blowing really hard (it often does up on the hills!).

So this wind question as well as the possibility of seeing bigger critters while wandering about has me sorting a heavier bullet load. Two schools of thought on this one - go long and sleek ie 75 Eld-M - again, high BC and being used successfully by many on goats, fallow and red hind size animals with careful shot choice and placement. But it is a VLD style projectile (as is the 53g to be fair) and as such is very fussy about seating depth. It has been challenging to get close to the groups I would like for this load. In comparison I put a few 69g TMKs on top of a dose of 2206 and promptly shot a one large hole group - very forgiving bullets!
The second approach is a heavier built bullet, the 75g Speer Gold Dot. This seems like a good choice to have on hand if pigs or deer are spotted. This has been quite easy to get to shoot good groups with as it's a very forgiving shape like the Sierra TMKs - the down side being they don't hold velocity anywhere near as well as the very pointy ones.

Well that turned out waaay longer than expected, but hopefully gives you some more ideas.

PS Also have a wicked reduced load thanks to @Pommy doing some reloading nerd wizardry on GRT - did this to duplicate what a 17 HMR can do without buying another rifle! ��

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rusl

Thanks for the input, I guess I need to think about why I want the heavy bullets, I was thinking better bc and less wind drift, which is why I'm going to a 223 from my 17hmr, got sick of the wind blowing it away.

Thinking it through its sounding like it will be quite a custom rifle and I'm starting to wonder why I don't just do some thing like load my 308 with 110gr v max's for windy or longer shooting days and have a simple stock 223 for 0-200m sort of shots.

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Ya gotta think how far to follow this or you'll end up like me - down a rabbit hole. I was sick of 55gn 223 getting "taken" by the wind so went to a 6mm Creedmoor, however a 243 will do exactly the same thing if you get a fast twist barrel (and there is a Howa in 6mm CM). The issue then is you are burning nearly double the amount of powder just to gain a bit less windage. In some ways buying more ammo to practise reading the wind might be a better bet!

22-250 could slot in there too.... sure has opened my eyes to what an extra 300-500fps does to trajectory. if its windy,get closer LOL. under 150 yards any deer is in big trouble with the 223 from me..... I carry a few 50 grn barnes ttsx for just that reason....they just work.

I extended the length of a 223 tikka mag some years ago & it worked good. Was a problem mag that kept springing the rounds up so as they wouldn't chamber.(the fix was to cramp the feed lips tighter and apply a little heat from a heat gun) There was a forum article, had the link but can't seem to put it up here.

http://Re_tikka_T3_223_magazine_mod.htm

Rock: that link does not work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelisreal

I finally got a 223 about six months ago and have been having fun setting it up to be a light, easy to shoot hunting rifle.

I settled on a Howa 1500 short action(not the Mini) for a few reasons, a big one being I despise the plastic magazine well/trigger guard/detachable box magazines they come with. This decision process predated the Jefferson bottom metal flush magazines and the Ken Henderson Hi-Tec stocks becoming available for the Mini.

Another consideration was that when I looked at the conventional internal double stack magazine in the Howa, it seemed quite simple to be able to modify the blocked magazine box (was about 2.35 previous if I recall) to accept rounds loaded to around 2.46 or so. This was combined with the 1500 having arrived in NZ in Jan 20 finally sporting the 1/8 twist! And the last factor was the Howa Alpine stock (very slim and light proportions, shortish foreend) I had scored a few months prior just sitting there waiting for a barreled action to be acquired.

I had the barrel trimmed slightly so the Gunworks 35mm suppressor cleared the foreend - barrel ended up at 18.5 inches.i could have gone shorter (didn't feel any need to ) by using a DPT or the Gunworks 41mm suppressor as the over-barrel section is much shorter on those.

Next step - hunting loads. Short version is the Hornady 53g V-Max was selected for initial experimentation as its BC is much higher than most projectiles in that weight range. A bit of experimentation found a load that shot nice groups at 3140 fps. Game on. Go shoot some wallabies! This load works devastatingly well. Anything this side of 300m is in big trouble provided the wind isn't blowing really hard (it often does up on the hills!).

So this wind question as well as the possibility of seeing bigger critters while wandering about has me sorting a heavier bullet load. Two schools of thought on this one - go long and sleek ie 75 Eld-M - again, high BC and being used successfully by many on goats, fallow and red hind size animals with careful shot choice and placement. But it is a VLD style projectile (as is the 53g to be fair) and as such is very fussy about seating depth. It has been challenging to get close to the groups I would like for this load. In comparison I put a few 69g TMKs on top of a dose of 2206 and promptly shot a one large hole group - very forgiving bullets!
The second approach is a heavier built bullet, the 75g Speer Gold Dot. This seems like a good choice to have on hand if pigs or deer are spotted. This has been quite easy to get to shoot good groups with as it's a very forgiving shape like the Sierra TMKs - the down side being they don't hold velocity anywhere near as well as the very pointy ones.

Well that turned out waaay longer than expected, but hopefully gives you some more ideas.

PS Also have a wicked reduced load thanks to @Pommy doing some reloading nerd wizardry on GRT - did this to duplicate what a 17 HMR can do without buying another rifle! ��

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I was about to suggest this as a solution as I still have one of those 223s listed in the FS section. It is simply a case of pulling out the spacer at the rear of the mag well and extending the follower....

Can't send the link, but what it was is ---

You cut the plastic back spacer out, install a piece of box section aluminum, bought from Mitre10 fits perfectly - fix in place, with small screws, threw the side of mag.

The spring & platform, can be pushed down and gently levered out, from the top. The bottom of the magazine unclips carefully. Then you are ready to cut the plastic spacer out & install the aluminum section, setting the length you require. Simply clip bottom back in & install spring set again. I increase the ride plate size so as it cradled the length of the 223 case, otherwise there is a gap at the back, which catches the back of the case a bit. JBs Weld is amazing stuff for moulding and sticking things, also have use it to bed actions, glue in pillar beds, all sorts.

I did this some years ago and it worked well, don't own the Tikka light 223 anymore, so some food for thought for those who don't mind tinkering, I did it to a 5 shot mag that was behaving badly as explained in above post.

Still trying to think this through, handled a x-bolt today and it was very nice, has the fast twist barrel. If I'm going to something like a 243 or bigger I may as well be using my 308 or sell it and get a smaller deer rifle that can do both. My thinking was a 223 suppressed would be a fair amount quiter than a suppressed 243, 22-250,308 etc or does it not make that much difference.

I don't know if it's just me but I feel a bit odd when people ask me what I'm shooting rabbits with and I say a .243, most people are expecting a 22 and think I'm nuts shooting rabbits with a centerfire. Up here any way, varmint shootings not a big thing up here.

Agree, see what you are saying!
Used to see, way back "Yanks" using hugh centerfires, to shoot prairie dogs.
I'm also from the north island - 308 was more than adequate for any hunt, and I don't really like recoil.
Came down to the mainland to live, bugger me small teenagers were using 300 win mags, at the rifle range. I assumed I must be just be a pussy.
Having hunted down here I can see why the magnums have there place, hugh open country and long shots often required.
Having ranged between 308 and 223 to be my main hunting rifle, they each have there place, so have kept both and enjoy them for what they are, reloading to achieve the best of both.
Owned many rimfires (bunny shooting) of late have become disillusioned with the quality of ammo/accuracy and so decision was made to reload the, 223 cheap/cheerful ability to shoot at the rifle range and at rabbits, accuracy is key, the bonus is increased range, downside bunnies not so eatable / only take the back bits anyway.
Guess what I'm trying to say is, shoot what you enjoy shooting, with the confidence to get the job done.

The Australian Waters Rifleman mags for T3 allow longer seating without having to go to chassis or change bottom metal. Another option.
Dave Waters a pleasure to buy from...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rusl

Still trying to think this through, handled a x-bolt today and it was very nice, has the fast twist barrel. If I'm going to something like a 243 or bigger I may as well be using my 308 or sell it and get a smaller deer rifle that can do both. My thinking was a 223 suppressed would be a fair amount quiter than a suppressed 243, 22-250,308 etc or does it not make that much difference.

I don't know if it's just me but I feel a bit odd when people ask me what I'm shooting rabbits with and I say a .243, most people are expecting a 22 and think I'm nuts shooting rabbits with a centerfire. Up here any way, varmint shootings not a big thing up here.

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theres a difference between 223 and 243 suppressed sound wise in favor of the 223, but its not a lot