iv also had a zastava cz99 easily the best 22 ive owned that was brand new all my one needed was a trigger smooth and find what ammo it liked and that was it
iv also had a zastava cz99 easily the best 22 ive owned that was brand new all my one needed was a trigger smooth and find what ammo it liked and that was it
The Ruger is in general rubbish and has been outsold by the Marlin semi action worldwide by somewhere between 1:2 and 1:3 times. The Ruger magazine is a good design but not the best when teamed up with a semi auto as it is renowned for clogging up with blow back gases. To get Rugers shooting OK will cost you a lot more than $100 with todays gunsmithing rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by gundoc
If you want a nice semi look out for a Marlin 60 DLX. @sneeze has a very nice example and they do not cost the earth.
The two most common semi-autos that gave problems were the Marlin (misfiring, loose barrel, magazine problems) and the Sterling M20 (broken firing pins, incorrect assembly, loose/missing ejectors). All .22 semi-autos need periodic cleaning to remove powder residue, and some are worse than others in this regard (the 10/22 not being one of them). The worst thing that an owner can do with a .22 semi-auto is put oil in it. This acts as a magnet for dust and firing residue. The full tune on a Ruger 10/22 (2.5 lb crisp trigger pull, refit barrel, tune for subs, supply and fit buffer pin) should not cost any more than $60 from any competent gunsmith. It was a job I happily did for $50 and made good money as it takes about 30-40 minutes, and still under 1 hour if you include a threading job.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetman
the stats I saw were 10/22 over 5million sold and model 60 over 11 million sold
Most people look down on the 22lr , and as such MOST are willing to pay very little for one , so thats mainly why they are cheap and not well designed or made .
I would look out for a very good 2nd hand rifle , like the Annie 54 or a Sako P94S Finnfire , at approx 1.5k , new your only option is a new Annie 54 from deadeye dicks for just over 2k , and thats good when they use to be 3k .
The Volqs are OK , again look for a 2nd hand one , and go for the Steel actioned one ie SS and not Aluminium .
Or the Weiranchs at 1.3k new .
Me , I have a soft spot for Annie 54s and P94S , of the 2 , the Sako is a little lighter , for hunting with , and barrel changes are easier , basically a allen key & a headspace guage .
Cheers Chris
I would like you to find one that will do that work for that money today! The Marlin, out of the box, does not generally need anything other than a weaker trigger return spring (get rid of the ridiculous anti law suit one) and and if you want a slight change to the trigger blade to improve the trigger; mine took me about 10 minutes and a floppy disc. The open design of the Marlin mags makes them very easy to clean. The shops here seem to prefer to sell people the Ruger so they can also sell them the extras they require to make them do what they should have done from the factory.Quote:
Originally Posted by gundoc
My 2c worth is if you are hell bent on a semi - then buy a cheap Ruger 10/22 and then add the aftermarket replacement part as required (the Tony Kidd stuff) to bring it up to the top standard - This is what the guys use for inter-club but its not cheap. An entire Kidd would be somewhere around 1600 - 2k I'm thinking from when I enquired 6 months ago. The best thing about this is you could just swap the receiver and trigger if you are happy with the barrel and stock it comes with... or replace as you have funds or parts are available... becomes a pretty good project gun as you can add on the mods as required.
Here's the details for Darin from the Tony Kidd site.
International Sales
Other than that your best opportunity for good 22lr is a bolt action. CZ probably pound for pound the best with a trigger job/ replacement made then Anshutz 64 action models than top of the heap a 54 action. (depending on its history etc) being a lefty the CZ was the choice for me.
You guys just don't get it! The Ruger 10/22 does NOT need any aftermarket parts to make it a 100% reliable and accurate rifle. It just needs lees than 1 hours work on the factory parts to get the job done. The 10/22 after-market parts are for people with more money than brains! I was one of the first professional shooters in NZ to use the 10/22 (1966) and I have been tuning them since then. I have fitted new factory barrels to 10/22's that have done in excess of 100,000 rounds and they are still giving good service with professional shooters. Maybe I should offer pre-tuned new wood/blue 10/22's to the NZ market (with 50 metre test targets) for $500 and make a killing!
YES ,
I will , BUY one .
You know, thats actually not a bad idea!Quote:
Originally Posted by gundoc
People 'learning' all they know from the internet and confusing that with first hand experience is the problem here I think @gundoc ...Quote:
Originally Posted by gundoc
If you could do it you would make a killing.Quote:
Originally Posted by gundoc
There is nothing wrong with doing a bit of homework on the internet. You can tap into the knowledge of many thousands of people world wide. That is what this site is about; more than one opinion. I researched world wide on the internet and found that people that own both Ruger and Marlin semis would generally take the Marlin for a hunt as it was more far more accurate and reliable out of the box and with 10 minutes work the trigger could me made much better. They kept the Ruger for plinking and blinging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamus
There is a very good reason the Marlin has out sold the Ruger world wide, it is really just in NZ that the Ruger has a bigger following. There is also a reason there are so few after market parts for the Marlin (doesn't need them) and so many for the Ruger (does).
Just to add another aspect to this discussion of accuracy , and not the original topic of rimfire quality .
A number of times I've been asked to help someone at the gun club to sort out a problem .22 .
After the initial check of the basics - mounts , crown , trigger adjustment if its an option , then multiple ammo changes , the biggest hindrance to consistent accuracy is the cheap arse scopes that gunshops sell to customers with the advice that it will be fine on a .22 , but in the same breathe advise it would be no good on a Centerfire .
Parallax is a major problem with many scopes ( not just cheap ones either ) when used at .22 distances .
It can be overcome in a limited way if your aware of it and use a absolutely consistent gun hold and sight picture .
But even that can just leave you chasing your tail .
Everyone blames the rifle , but a large component of the problems can be the cheap Hong Kong Phooey Optics and Beer Can alloy mounts .
Ken
May be I should have bolded the most important words in my posts top line ... " AS REQUIRED
The best thing is actually, you have options e.g. trigger or trigger work to get it to exactly what you want a super light trigger well you can do that, new barrel or action you can do that- but rest assured once you start it becomes a bit of a arms race and hence I added Darins details and at the end of the day comes down to peoples preferences out there.
I know exactly what you mean man. Those that win government contracts are always the lowest of low.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
EM 332 | Trade Me
EM332 on TM
As a past comp shooter and long term rimfire hobbyist I would like to challenge some comments made here. The notion that most 22s now sold - marlin, cz, savage etc are all of very low quality and are absolute crap is opinion and nothing more than that. It is certainly not fact. It is quite opposed to the views and buying behaviour of most kiwi shooters/farmers who buy 97-98% of their 22s in the $0-800 dollar category, while just 2% of buyers choose the high priced Sako Quads/Weihrauch etc. This breakdown from manager of large rifle retailer.
We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.
Have had the opportunity to thoroughly bench test somewhere between 60-100 .22 makes and models in the last 20 years - new models from manufacturers and second hand units - and there are in fact some very sound 22 performers which cost very little but which function very well and shoot superbly on the bench and in the field. We have also shot just under 20,000 bunnies from just one of our stations alone in the last 7 years - in depth field testing which shows out the merits and faults of any rifle. And from this experience I have no hesitation in recommending a number of models and makes as having the right operating qualities for NZ conditions. These reliable and often inexpensive little performers include CZ and Brno models - excellent wee hunters - Marlin 925 and 980, Marlin 795 and model 60 semiautos, upgrade Savages, Winchester 9422, Norinco Em332, polished JW15s and others.
Each of these little units can be deadly effective off the bench as well as in the field in the right hands. Some have proven superbly accurate e.g. a Norinco Em332 which shot 4 consecutive groups averaging 0.6" at 100 meters; two Marlin 60 semiautomatics which touched 1/4" for groups at 50m (5 shot) and averaged 0.29 and 0.39 respectively for four group sets, JW15s which easily outshot Brnos, and Marlin 925s shooting into the 0.3s. They are well capable of matching any european sporters - and beat many off the bench. These same rifles have proven themselves thoroughly on the range and in the field. This is operational quality and its what most kiwi 22 buyers seek out.
Re semiauto 22s I've tested alot and ruger is one we no longer use - having had 6-7. They have consistently poor accuracy out of the box and I fundamentally object to buying a rifle then having to spend alot on getting it to shoot properly. The days are long gone when above mentioned ruger work would happen for $50-60. Two inexpensive semiautos that shine on the bench and in the field ( have tested maybe 12-15 of them) when doing side-by-side analysis with other makes are the two little marlins. The simple little 795 will comfortably shoot under 0.5" at 50 out of the box, and average round 0.58" for four group sets, and the 60s will drop to 1/4" at 50m - stunning accuracy. In terms of value/performance the little walnut stock 60DLX special at about $575 easily wins the semi race. We have used alot of these marlin semiautos in recent years - after they completely dismantled my own prejudice against semiauto inaccuracy - and we have almost zero reliability problems. Give them the right ammos and maintenance and they are trouble free.
I've had some beautiful 22s and tested others, but when it is time to head for the hills it is the highly competent super accurate wee workers that are picked out of the gunrack. And there are quite a number of these little units which give high quality performance in the field. That's the quality we most often look for in a 22, and it's what kiwis try to buy.
That's taking the piss, I paid $300 for mine not long ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
Trade me is supposed to email me when they get listed... but damn look at the priceQuote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
You are just challenging one persons opinion with your own, it doesn't make it fact ...Quote:
Originally Posted by mudgripz
I dunno if it's so much opinon as well documented actual testing and field work experience
That is pretty balanced. An opinion that is backed up with testing and numbers. As he said his opinion was challenged, and it his opinion has now changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamus
You bring up some interesting points .Quote:
Originally Posted by mudgripz
Those group sizes are impressive .
You must have been using wind indicators and Target ammo ?
What groups did your Competition rifles shoot ?
Ken
Just to clarify my earlier post this is where the opinion is - I have had for years a lovely little German made 22 mag, lovely walnut stock, Kahles scope and it gets used - for everything. Has been bounced around in a scabbard on a motorbike etc. Its the rifle that gets used the most so I bought a nice one and I use it - it doesn't stay in the closet.Quote:
Originally Posted by mudgripz
True - I wasn't arguing with his facts and figures but his opinion on what people buy and why - that is an opinion. My post was pretty poorly worded :(Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetman
I now see your point of view Shamus.
cheers.
Shamus, you're probably not like most kiwis who buy their working .22 rifles in the sub 1K category.
When discussing the masses, generalizations have to be made.
With you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamus
One of my favourite rifles would be the second hand (probably a lot more than two) Norinco JW-15. Cost a whole $100. Got it cut down and took it to range to sight it in at 50m. First group (5 shots) was after bore sighting. Then shifted to the dot.
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/a...psf2689b1d.jpg
Finished with another group
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps847677e0.jpg
Would be better if someone taught me how to shoot. Instructions I've had so far are load a round and keep it pointing that way.
Looks like you are doing OK :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetman
You seem to be doing not too badly on your lonesome there Gadgetman :)
I'm getting there. I can see I kept pulling shots, and I knew as soon as I squeezed the trigger on those fliers. But you have to look to see how bad it is, just like when you cut yourself.
Certainly has made for some interesting reading and have been fervently looking around and have seen a few things on trademe etc. Re the EM332 - not at that price.
Have been swinging around to the CZ452 actually have used a Brno Mod 1 a lot and owned a Jw-15 for some time - it started to give trouble with inconsistent accuracy after about 1500 rounds went from extremely accurate to shocking and the zero moved around. Think it was the stock in the end that let it down and was the cause. Should have just relieved the barrel channel and probably would of fixed it but sold it on. Wanted a semi-auto but really I don't think I will be happy with one.
Like the Anschutz and Weihrauch but a: No shops around here have one to look and test for fit. b: for the weihrauch hog back stock should be obsolete these days with the predominance of optics. The CZ I know is a good fit/stock size, maybe get the barrel cut to 16" (what the other 6 inches are there for is anyone's guess on a .22lr).
A Model 60 DLX would be nice but a tube mag just doesn't fit my needs.
I think have moved away from the point of this thread, the OP wants something nice, he has money to spend but wants something that looks good, feels good and is finished nicely to a high standard and is struggling to find something that fits this bill.
He is not disputing that cheap .22s can be accurate, merely that most, even the more pricey ones, look and feel cheap and are not something he can be proud of owning.
I agree with him in this regard.
As much of a CZ fan as I am I still agree that the workmanship of the 452 is not what it was on the Brnos, I have not played with a 455 yet so cannot comment on those.
Maybe we should ask Howa to build a .22, they can make a centrefire to a extremely high standard that retails for under $800 so why not a .22? :thumbsup:
You are right but this thread has helped make a decision to get something that may not be perfect but adequate and well matched for what I will do with it. Re the 455 I haven't seen close up or felt one but anything switch barrel must have a compromise to allow this in something I do not require to change the barrel ever (merely opinion about switch barrels maybe there is no compromise but it is my perception).Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
Your last line was pretty much the point of this thread, I am happy to spend but it must be good value for my money and rimfires compared to centrefires you must make a huge leap in cost to just take a somewhat minimal step up in quality.
@mudgripz Let me know when you've done a review and test of the Ruger American I would be very interested in your perceptions if you get to have a look at one.
Very true Makros. The difference in a bit of hand finishing and selecting a nice stock shouldn't be much.
I'm a tight arse and like to spend the least to do the best I can. Also like the odd occasion at the range where someone comes over to see what out shot their pride and joy, and they find it was a heap of junk that looks a heap of junk. The annoying thing is I bought this as the kids gun.
It has most certainly been an interesting thread.
I may well have to look closer at rimfires, I've always been a " buy a reasonable one and use it " bloke, however even my own earlier post about the Marlin 39a made me think there is a little more to them .
Howa make one, well thats certainly a good idea.
Mak - I think you've nailed it in the comment "something that may not be perfect but adequate and well matched for what I will do with it." Some of these rifles are quite humble but by heavens they are deadly at what they do. Give some thought to a marlin 795 which with an action polish, Mcarbo spring set to lower trigger to 3.5lbs, and a Boyds stock - can become an accurate wee shooter with real charm. Scroll down this rfc thread past the Boyds evolution 60 to the 795 in Target Hunter stock in Royal Jacaranda. Not near Weihrauch quality but a little carbine with real character.
Boyds target hunter stocks for 60/795s - RimfireCentral.com Forums
Ken - usually stick to hunting rounds for sporter rifle tests, though also some basic solids eg std vel CCI and Winchester Expert black packet. Have used at times SK, Lapua, Eley Club/Match/Tenex, Fiocchi Match/Supermatch but generally find there will be a hunting round they like. Can often be high velocity. I pop good scope on the wee rifles, run them through 8-15 types of ammo, then drill into preferred ammos. Mexican yeollow packet Aguila superextra of few years ago (almost identical to Fiocchi HV blue packet) would easily pop 0.5s and 0.6s at 100m in the EM332. That was overall the most accurate sporter round but not best in all rifles.
Very accurate sub 0.5" shooters (not just one occasional group which is meaningless) at 50m include: CZ, Brno, Norincos Em332/JW27/JW15, Marlins 980/925, and Marlin semiautos 795 and 60,Weihrauch HW 60 J. Consistently most accurate at 100m = Norinco Em332; most accurate at 50m = Marlin 60DL.
Other good performers 0.5 - 0.7" : Toz 78 (fine wee rifle for kiwi conditions), Winchester 9422, Savage Mk 2, and the excellent ruger 10/22 model 96 lever action - best of the rugers and a top hunter etc etc.
I have the cz 455 that came with the .22lr and 17hmr barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Makros
I only swapped the barrels once and then sold the 17 barrel.
if the 22 wont do it i grab the 22-250.
I do like the quality of the wood and the finish of engineering but would put the lithgow above it if you dont mind the synthetic stock.
I didnt have any issues with the switch barrel system which seemed to work well but i cant be bothered re zeroing after barrel swaps.
Thats my 2 cents worth anyway!