303 Mark II (A) Jungle Carbine question.

Not sure if this is the correct location to post this, if not,.......sorry.
Could someone please tell me what to look out for when purchasing the above rifles and also could someone clarify Bayonet Lug restrictions in NZ if any.
I have noticed on a few auctions they the seller has stated the bayonet lug can be removed if requested and alternatively
I have noticed buyers asking if the lug can be removed.
Does a bayonet lug on a rifle change it's category from A tone on a bolt action rifle ?
Thanks

I have no idea why one would remove a bayonet boss off a bolt action. Makes no difference other than make it NOT original and possibly reduce value.
Bayonet boss only make a difference on a semi.

If someone cuts off the bayo lug on a jungle carbine, find them and destroy them.

I have a bayonet lug on my no1 MK 111
Sure ain't E cat !
Didn't all the SKS imports have an integral cruciform bayonet ?

Thanks for that guys, I was pretty confused to be honest when I noticed the posts but thought I would ask......., also was made aware of a military auction in welling this month. I presume it would be worth visiting for some good deals.

Bone up on what to look for in a genuine No 5 if that's what you're after. There's a few dudes who can help, @Tertle is pretty up with the play and he has a good site Home | All About Enfields. Personally, if I was down that way, I'd be having a serious look at the P14's and Sniders. :)

Roughly off the top of my head:
Bayonet lug
Narrower bottom metal
Relief cuts in the barrel under the wood
Rear sight only goes up to 800 (ish) yards
Far I can make out some came with or without the sheet metal fore end cap.
Lightened bolt knob.
Plenty of online reference about identifying an original from a frankenNo4

Dont remove the bayonet lug on a No5 (aka jungle carbine) it will reduce value and they are a piece of commonwealth history. It is fine to have a bolt action with bayonet lug on a standard license in NZ.

You want to make sure its an actual no5 and not a cut down no4 in no5 clothes. Look for a hole in the bolt handle knob (no5s have had metal removed from the knob), also the barrel as it joins the receiver will have been scalloped out on a true no5 (cut marks around the barrel to reduce weight and the receiver will have less metal than a no4 receiver aswell, below the 800yrd flip sight it will be less built up.

There were two makers of Jungle Carbines, BSA and Fazekerley. BSA made less and may fetch a slightly higher price due to this but both are great little collector rifles.

This guy here has a bit of info on the ole 303 Home | All About Enfields

They are a great little piece of history. Good luck with getting a nice one.

Skeet, if you have any questions or want to send photos im more than happy to have a look, the guys above have given you very good advice.

Bayonet lugs apply to MSSA rifle, and by definition a Mil Style Semi Auto which our beautiful Lee's are not.

There are Flash hider replacements that you can but to "restore" ones that have been butchered but be aware a lot from the states are made for the No4 and are a different barrel diameter, so if your going down that route just be aware. there are many nice restorable No5's out there and not a bad project, let me know if you do go down that route as I can so prevent you from making horrible cock ups like Ive made :)

Owwww you may also hear various stories of war time special jungle carbines used by snipers or the paratrooper version with the barrels shortened......... please don't fall for that crap! yes there were experimental stocks tried but trust me, your not going to find one (if you let me know though :) )

Another thing to look for is scalloped areas on the barrel near the receiver, that very normal and indicates she is the real McKoy, don't be shy to ask any potential seller to take the top woods off, its not that hard, as I have seen no4 barrels screwed in, so be careful. But Littledog nicely covered that off. if your lucky and you can read the side of the receiver you may notice really faint writing called electro stencilling, I personally look for 44 45 but they have a lot of history after those dates as well

they are a great rifle and I do not believe they deserve their wandering zero reputation, I have my on theory on that but.......

Enjoy, but be warned one lee is never enough ;)

Crikey ive just read my own website, yep ive 3 No5's now!!!! see, one is never enough

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Originally Posted by Skeet

Thanks for that guys, I was pretty confused to be honest when I noticed the posts but thought I would ask......., also was made aware of a military auction in welling this month. I presume it would be worth visiting for some good deals.

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Well worth the visit. I would go if I could, but I have to work.
There are some good deals and Ive got heaps of books and stuff for next to nothing.

That's fantastic folks, thank you so much for the advice. Their are currently 3 Rifles on trade me that interest me and as an exercise on what to watch for and thing not to touch, professional opinion on the rifles would be great. 1 - listing 787061159, 303 no4 Mark1. 2 - Listing 785146769, Jungle Carbine, Buy Now $650.00 And finally 3 - No 4 NZ Bush Carbine priced at $650.00, listing 787031210
Reference $650 is a little higher Than I wanted to pay but it would be good to here if these rifles are worth it.

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Originally Posted by Skeet

That's fantastic folks, thank you so much for the advice. Their are currently 3 Rifles on trade me that interest me and as an exercise on what to watch for and thing not to touch, professional opinion on the rifles would be great. 1 - listing 787061159, 303 no4 Mark1. 2 - Listing 785146769, Jungle Carbine, Buy Now $650.00 And finally 3 - No 4 NZ Bush Carbine priced at $650.00
Reference $650 is a little higher Higgs I wanted to pay but it would be good to here if these rifles are worth it.

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Look at the militaria auction catalogue, there are bound to be some on there

Thanks for that mate I will take a look.

be warned one lee is never enough ;)

Truer words have never been spoken!

Varies they have a lot of crap as well

A Good No5 (I assume you mean?) should be quite a bit cheaper at the auction than TM, pay particular attention to the barrel. They are also not very accurate or much fun to shoot so I'd wonder why you want one?

I removed the lug because it was always bloody catching on scrub. This gun was my main weapon when pig hunting, was a tool, not a safe Queen or a collectors piece for me. Sold it a few years ago, wished I hadn't as it was bloody handy at times.

"No 4 NZ Bush Carbine priced at $650.00" no such thing, its pile of crap, avoid, its not a "real" enfield its something someone has chopped up.

787061159 No4 mk1 LB, doesnt look to bad, but bore doesnt sound to great, what are you going to do with it?

militaria.co.nz, up around the 1320s there are some no4s and no5s.

Thanks again, great advice. Very much appreciated. Steven the main interest in the military rifles is to join the wellington service rifle association and shoot them. Lol. My interest in these rifles is also based on the history etc but not so much to collect, look and polish but to put rounds down range. Have been looking at the normal stuff, Mosin Nagant, Mauser k98 etc, but seem to keep getting drawn back towards the Lee Enfields. From what I have seen in the catalog of the wellington auction coming up most of the Lee Enfields are set around $250.00 to $350.00' but if course depends on the day. Lol and who's got the most coin. I would prefer to keep costs under $500.00 and would have thought I could get quite a nice clean rifle for around this. Problem I have is that due to experience or lack off should I say, I would be buying on how nice it looks instead of specifics, barrel etc. I keep reading comments regarding barrels etc, pitting, and scale 1 to 10, see a lot of people saying barrel condition around 6 or 7' what is regarded as a do not touch to yea that's ok. Lmao

WSRA is what I have just started to do. Up until now I have just shot prone long range at Trentham but my eyesight has deteriorated a lot in 18months so 500~600yds is becoming impossible with peep sights for me, hence WSRA which I am enjoying.

NB auction estimates bear no relation to reality, whether the gun is good or utterly stuffed its listed as $250~$350....LOL.

In this case a no5 jungle carbine is not my first choice or advice but go with what you want is the important thing. There are also issues with the no4s and no5s regarding accuracy, brass case life and receiver strength. The SMLE's are also a pain in the ass frankly not for WSRA I'd suggest. The ones I would look at are the No3s (Pattern 14s) items 1331 and 1332 (in particular 1332), these dont chew brass and are very strong actions being based on the Mauser but slower to fire than the no4s/5s.

Otherwise std no4s items; 1317 no, its marked DP (drill purpose only) so not fit to fire, might be OK for parts, a big might so worth maybe $50. 1318, (but it doesnt say matching bolt which is critical to safety, check it mght be matching), 1323 would be a target gun so not as issued probably, might be great for Threntham but not for WSRA due to its bedding, suggest you avoid. 1325, um no, rusty bore. 1326, 1327, 1328, maybe (probably not bore needing cleaning is a bad sign sometimes), 1329, looks positive "metalwork with most finish" tends to indicate hardly used), 1330, maybe, might be a tragte gun though so avoid if so. First thing, look at the overall condition and check the muzzle rifling carefully, if the rifling is gone or faint, walk away. I'd expect these to be $400ish if they are good and worth buying. For the No5s, actually they look good, 1334 looks good, 1335 very good, 1336, ditto, 1337 OK, 1338, OK (a bolt spring is easy and cheap if that is all it is) and more like $500 maybe $600 but for a good one I'd pay it having learned the expensive way on trying to refurb guns.

1309 to 1316 is the old stuff and honestly its a minefield on buying a pre no1 mk3 (SMLE) and getting parts, ouch, that is real expert territory on those and not me.

Nagants, well the M44s which are the shorties and can be got in good nick for $400, and I mean FTR'd (Factory through repair) and never re-issued good nick. If you want a carbine do consider these, I like my one. After ww2 dated guns are well made IMHO, I wouldn't go near a gunshitty full length nagant made during ww2, rough as.

Take a small LED torch to look at the muzzle, the light in the auction room isnt that great. Take an empty case and ask if you can cycle it to make sure the bolt will close, Ive come across guns frequently enough that wont in these auctions indicating a serious problem. If you have go and no go gauges even better. I will be there on Friday evening having a look to see if anything is worth bothering with.

If you are going to reload use light/min loads, 38grain ADI 2208 max for WSRA. Dont load up, the no4 action stretches with hot loads and the brass wont last long. It is also of dubious strength and flexes in the wooden stock badly when loaded hot and accuracy can go awol (been there done that). No3s (pattern 1914) can be loaded hotter OK and they done destroy brass fast. So 38grain 2208 seems reliable, stable, safe and the brass lasts a long time.

Fuk Steven, great post, ontoit buddy......

Steven, what I can I say, that is frickn awesome mate. I will note all the auction listings you have selected and definitely stick to your suggestions. I may have to re-read all that a few times but again cannot thank u enough. Obviously will have to save a few more dollars than first thought, but all good. Thanks again.

Good to see WSRA getting some more new blood.

While I'm a raving Lee Enfeild fanboy, keep ammo cost in mind for service shoots.
If you shoot most months with the odd practice shoot throwen in then over say two years you would probably be better if $ wise buying a cheep AR due the the ammo cost. A 20" ranger from guncity would be just over a grand more than a Jungle Carbine.

A p14 as said would give you better brass life if you do stay with .303

A sks would also do as a cheep starter rife that had cheep ammo.

Personally I use a m4gary ar and a Lee enfeild No4 mk2 for most of Wsra shoots

The No4 mk2 is the best 303 ever made in my opinion and even better,you can still get brand spankin new ones

Thanks Res, noted. I must admit I am a keen AR lover also, as well as the WW1, WW2 rifles. Realise that the Jungle Carbine is probably not suited for WSRA shoots. I must admit However i do like the look of the Mark1/No4 and again noting everyone's comments regarding brass etc may look to go in this direction. Their is one on trade me at the moment that I am watching, the seller has noted the barrell 7 out of 10 but to be honest I would not no if thats good or not ?.

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Originally Posted by steven

787061159 No4 mk1 LB, doesnt look to bad, but bore doesnt sound to great, what are you going to do with it?

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Steven, any further suggestions on this a Trade Me rifle, or specific questions I can throw at the seller. Thanks

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Originally Posted by hamsav

Mmmm That's good news , I too have a No 4 mk2 :). I want to get into this target shooting of service rifles ( I have a few ) but we are moving to Invers soon ( hope they do it there )

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There are service shoots run in Dunedin fairly regularly at the Bruce bay club.
Or if you can get a few people together nzsra will help you run a shoot anywhere