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Would like some CONSTRUCTIVE opinions on Air rifles please.
I am looking at buying an Air rifle and not sure whether to go .177 or .22 and what would be the better brand.
Now I realise that some of it comes down to personal preference etc, I get that.
Any knowledge etc that people can share so I make an informed choice would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
i have a practically unused ruger for sale. its the earlier metal "airhawk" not the inferior plastic one. includes a proper airgun scope $300
knocks over magpies really well.
its .177 but high velocity.
i lent it to dannyb and he says its a killer too
if you have the money and licence id go pcp just as good as 22rf at shorter ranges imho @Mintie seems to be quite knowedgable on the subject
Hi Pete
Need to know a bit more about what you want the airgun to do before I can help so a couple of questions for you.
What do you want to shoot it at? paper? animals? tin cans?
What ranges do you want to be able to shoot at?
What environment are you shooting in? back yard, orchards, farm land etc? - Is noise level important?
Sounds personal but what is your build? Airguns can vary from child size/weight right up to popeye arms required.
Whats your budget?
Whats your appearance preference? wood/blued? tactical? synthetic, long, short, pistol? - Yes you can legally hunt game with an air pistol if you get something grunty enough.
Cheers
fps and caliber is secondary to accuracy. you are shooting a very light weight projectile in either 177 or 22 into a target or animal with a low kill zone. you are better off with a 700fps rifle that will shoot an inch at 15 meters than a rifle that shoots 3" but hits 1200 fps
22 for fur, 177 for feathers. It's a lot easier to shoot with 177.
You simply need a dive tank and some very compact filling gear hanging off it to deal with PCP. It's dead easy and refilling takes under a minute total.
As for rimfires being "more stable", I have no idea what that's all about. My .22 PCP shoots consistent 6mm groups at 35yds and flattens maggies/ bunnies/.. at over 60yds.
Think this comment was more saying that the bullet shape and weight of a rimfire projectile is more stable (esp at super sonic speeds) than the diabolo shape of an airgun pellet at longer ranges. The bigger issue with rimfires however is that the consistency from one bullet to another just isn't as good as it can be with good PCP's - Talking about projectile weight, powder weight, COAL, seating depth and projectile being seated concentrically - Most of these are avoided with PCP.Quote:
Originally Posted by 6x47
Really You need to know your budget, and need to work out what you are shooting. But here are my views on this subject.
1. If you just want plinker and do not care for quality and accuracy, then all brands under 300 bucks are about the same since they are all quite well established anyway. For plinkering I dont think the improvement going from $300 to $600 is meaningful.
2. If you want some quality and accuracy, and good knock down power on rabbits and possums, you will be spending about 600-900 on a new rifle. Diana 350 N-tech is a fine example of this price range - it has a lot of power, a high end trigger, and reported very accurate for a hunting air gun. I am a believer that if you do not have a good trigger you cannot have pleasant, let along accurate, gun. It is only at this price range you start to have some good triggers, like the Diana T06 trigger.
3. if you want decent quality and decent accuracy (and let us not worry about energy and reach for the moment), air rifles are considerably more expensive than 22LR. You have only 3 choices for high end non-pcp air rifles: Air Amrs TX200 (3 variants), Weihrauch HW97K, and Dianan 54/56. They cost from 1150 to 1500 depending on features and stock. You will get build quality similar to a 800 dollar 22LR bolt action rifle (say, CZ 455 American for example), but less accuracy (without tuning work), less energy, less velocity, not too different noise level (if you go with a 22 cal 900 fps air gun), more weight, more recoil, more picky with scopes and rings. And non-pcp air rifles are very hold sensitive, meaning they are harder to shoot well than firearms. The only thing you may save is ammo cost if you went with 177. But good 22 cal air rifle ammo are close to the price of 22LR ammo.
4. only high end Air rifles are worth tuning. Tuning air guns can cost a lot of money because a lot of work is involved: re-crown, change spring, polish internals, change grease, etc. After a professional tuning you may get a air rifle that is on par with a 800 dollar 22LR rifle (out of box) in terms of accuracy within 40 meters. But the rimfire will always win further out because the inherent better BC of of the projectiles.
5. High end PCP are comparable to 22LR in accuracy and reach. Some people can make their 25 cal PCP shoot as good as 22LR rifle. But they cost way more. 2000 will get you an average one. 3000 will get you an above average one. As much as I admire good pcp rifles I feel they only have limited appeal - unless you routinely shoot upward, say for example shooting birds on roofs and trees. otherwise I do not see any application where 22LR RF will not do.
All good and important questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintie
I would ( irresponsibly) guess that Pete is interested in an air rifle because he wants something to shoot with in his yard, cost less to shoot. but he also want the air rifle to be good enough so shooting it can be used as training for firearm shooting. That is where air rifles starts to get expensive.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by mimms2
My $200 Chinese made .177 Crosman will hit side of milk bottle lid at 20m consistently. Have cleanly shot rabbits and cats with it out to 70m.
About good triggers and accuracy. I am not saying guns with bad trigger are inoperable, just to be clear. I shoot guns for pleasure. I just never get any pleasure shooting heavy and creepy triggers. This is just my personal preference. And since I dont shoot them, I never got good shooting them. Therefore, for me, bad triggers means no accuracy. That is not to say it must be so for everyone. Some people are able to shoot well with heavy and creepy triggers.
About tuning work, most people can probably perform basic clean and polish to any gun that is not too tricky to take a part, I agree. But often that is not enough and lower-end guns will need more work than high end guns. There is a recent blog post on a custom airgun shop's website, a Diana 56TH ( a $1400 NZD gun) needed re-crowning job because the factory finish was slightly off-center, thus produces flyers here and there. They did extensive turning job on top of re-crowning. In the end the gun was shooting quite well. I am guessing the tuning job would have cost close to the price of the gun (the re-crowning job alone was for about 150 USD). You can read all about it here.
This is how this Diana shot before the tuning, at 49 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by mimms2
Attachment 129215
I do not think you can get a refund for this level of performance. Even under NZ's consumer friendly law the CGA. This level of accuracy is already very good for air gun standard.
This story highlights a important point about air guns. There are just so many moving parts in a high end air gun that even for $1400 and Germany made, there are still a lot of imperfections. You can imagine what 600 dollar Spanish, Turkey, and American jobs will have. A friend of mine had a relatively powerful Gamo in 22 Cal. on the outside it look quality, sturdy, and respectable. The trigger was super heavy and long and creepy, the gun had a huge twang. I'd guess that all the internals are probably rough and imprecise. We were never able to get it to shoot well.
Yes agree go .22 for the knockdown energy. Best way to start.
You are one brave man, my friend. I would not attempt a DYI hard-modification on $1400 rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by mimms2
I would probably never attempt re-crown work at all. For me, if the gun deserves to have a re-crown job, it deserves a gun smith re-crown job.
I have been hunting with springer for about 5 years , a .177 and a .22. Both drop rabbits , its all about shot placement.
I would be talking to mintie… I know him from the airgun forums and he is a wizzzzzz with air rifles. I actually brought a cometa fusion/swapped with him and still have it .
(hope you don't mind me mentioning this mintie) . I have only just rebuilt the cometa after putting about four tins of pellets thru her.
Anyways springers are great for hunting/plinking.
I nail a few possums about the place with a 22cal multi pump.
Benjamin 392 factory rated to about 12ftlb but tuned to 20ftlb. Possums in trees fall down with 6 pumps out of a possible 14.
For research on individual rifles and types of power plant spend some time here.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/
NB multi pumps are fun in that you can shoot very quietly at say 5 mtr with kids on 2 pumps or step it up on fur.
Biggest problem is bullet drop so you need to pick a power level and shoot at intervals out to ????30mtr.
Z
Thanks guys for all your info.
Am wanting to shoot some pest birds in a shed on a farm at a range of no more than say 50 meters and maybe some bunnies and or possums.
I do have a .22 Ruger for bunnies etc but wont always have it with me.
ULTIMITSU If I started using an Air Rifle in my back yard then I would be in some deep trouble with the boss lady at home AND of course the boys in Blue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZQLewis
A multi pump is great for that job. I bought a Canon 737 from Youngs for birds in sheds. I have it sighted in on three pumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paua Pete
tell ya what pete. upon supplying i.d which i will scan i will lend you the ruger air rifle to use, you break it you bought it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paua Pete
I'm using a .25cal Diana PCP (yep, the Chinese made, German tuned ones), and it's magic on Rabbits and Hares. Might not be the go for using inside a barn, as they carry a fair bit of energy, and will quite possibly put holes in the roofing / cladding.
I guess I'm lucky. The wife enjoys shooting the .22lr and air rifle in the back yard, and the neighbors want all of their rabbits dead.
As for having the boys in blue turning up for using the air rifle at home, the Arms code has the following entry in regards to this. You are covered by the code, so should have no issues.
"Airguns may be used safely at home by setting up a properly
constructed range in your backyard or basement. In this way
you can enjoy your airgun in a safe and responsible way.
• Your range must have a ‘backstop’ e.g. a solid fence or
wall.
• No one should be able to walk between the target and
your airgun while you are shooting.
• The target needs to be fixed to a ‘pellet trap’ e.g. a
cardboard box full of sand."
Birds in a shed, sounds like a good job for a 177.
Medium power only or you will shoot holes in the tin.
Spring/gas spring as you don't have to worry about varying drops.
But that Cannon 737 multi pump suggested above from youngs would be perfect.
Many of the cheaper Spring air guns require a very high level of holding technique to shoot accurately for minute of Bird at 20 mtr type of stuff.
Fine for shooting cans but not for 1" kills on Sparrows.
Z
Young's Airgun Centre
Cannon 737 $199 plastic stock
http://www.youngsairgun.co.nz/catalogue/airguns&acc.pdf
rated to 1000 fps but I'm betting thats with a PBA / lead free pellet.
Still you probably only want 5-600 fps for birds inside.
P PS Spring guns are typically most efficient with lighter pellets while PCP's and Multi pumps are better with heavier pellets due to having a larger volume of air to accelerate the pellet.
I'm tempted to have a look at those pneumatic rifles, I used to have a Sharp Ace but foolishly sold it, my Norica is powerful but has a heavy trigger.
The Cannon 737 is a copy of the Sharp Innova made under license.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawls
Happy to lend it to Paul to test out. A bit fiddly to load, but reasonably accurate and virtually nothing moving but pellet and air when you give the trigger a squeeze.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZQLewis
Well I went along to Young's today and picked up a Cannon 737 (wood stock), traded in my old air rifle and swapped some 22 pallets for 177's AND walked out with cash in my pocket! way happy!
A few shots to sight it in (at half power) with open sights (at 22 metres) and even happier, great gun, thanks for the recommendation. :thumbsup:
Nice, Ron is a great guy to deal with! Was in there Yesterday myself in fact.
If anyone is interested I'll be listing a Sharp Innova for sale soon, very good original condition.
Technically within the law you can safely shoot in your backyard with an air rifle (with an appropriate backstop). Logically too. But these days i just dont because all you need is an ignorant / and or rifle hating neighbour and sadly you have trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paua Pete
Gotta say Ultamitsu you know your stuff. I was of the oldbreed NHAGC club at greenheith. Got to shoot with Sean Sweeny and some of the best across the country over those 7 years.
If it were me looking for a one off birdy gun i would be settling for 30m top range. Hw30s .177cal and a fixed 6x scope. Thats to shoot quite a lot. If its just a occational bird killer then i would go a cometa fenix.
Just my 2c but i'd stay clear of .22 as these carry the enertia a hell of a long way further than .177. Keeping the gun lightly powered should make your scopes last longer too.
First up hope all are well and keeping safe in this trying time.
Just a quick thank you to those that gave constructive help with this and those that offered to lend me an air rifle.
Thanks Mintie for your help as well was much appreciated.
I ended up borrowing a Crossman .177 and seems to do the job nicely.
I also have a CO2 powered one as well have yet to try that.
Once again everyone stay safe while in lock down.
I often wondered about 22LR CCI Quiet (or the segmented version) as an alternative to an air rifle. Any thoughts?
Years ago I tried 22 slugs in a 22 rifle that I launched using low powered Ramset blanks, can’t remember the result but probably not good!:XD:
My brother inlaw uses his 22 rifle with 22 bullets that are like birdshot. Its a normal bullet but filled with sand. I was killing sparrows in a tin shed with it , was good up to about 30m. If you want I can find out what they are called.
*update*
Its called " 22 LR Federal Bird Shot #12 "
Attachment 135532
I've tried 22 air rifle pellets in 22 hornet brass with just a primer only fired about 5 just to see if it would work never did any accuracy testing it worked tho
My 2 cents worth, the right airgun is the most accurate airgun you feel you can afford, including for plinking. An inaccurate airgun will put kids off shooting, just frustrating.
A bit like trying to get a kid interested in science by buying them a crap microscope showing blurry rainbow edges on everything you put under it and try to focus on. Soon tire of that.
All sensible, but as someone pointed out, you just need a hysterical gun hating neighbour. The Arms Code remember is not the law, the following is the law:Quote:
Originally Posted by quentin
Arms Act 1983
"48Discharging firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near dwellinghouse or public place
Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or to a fine not exceeding $3,000 or to both who, without reasonable cause, discharges a firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near—
(a) a dwellinghouse; or
(b) a public place,—
so as to endanger property or to endanger, annoy, or frighten any person.
Compare: 1958 No 21 s 16(2B), (3); 1964 No 36 s 6(1)
Section 48: amended, on 1 July 2013, by section 413 of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 (2011 No 81).
Section 48: amended, on 1 November 1992, by section 25 of the Arms Amendment Act 1992 (1992 No 95).
Obviously this part of the act cannot be used by some gun hater hearing gunfire from a gun range, but I think it is less clear if you have a garden setup, adhering to the arms code will help of course, but you will get some hassle from a bad neighbour.
The "without reasonable course" I highlighted as it seems to be it should have been relied upon by defendants in the past cases, but was not.
