Baikal rail issue

Not sure if its the cheap Aliexpress rail or the rifle Dovetail is just not true

Got it sighted in - but right windage is at full 100 (no more left)
Not sure whether to try another rail at a huge cost that may not fix it or shim this rail ??
I was wondering - should I flip the rail so overhang is to the rear.
Below 2 pics are a Rail that locks down via 8 pressure keys - presume it be fine as the rail is at a dead end forward
Prob cost $200NZ :-(

Attachment 145399

Attachment 145400

Attachment 145401

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

Not right, I mean too much left, no I mean that's just no good and not going to work!

That rail is pulling off square. They are a bugger for that, I have a similar one in my shitbits box. They need to be tight sliding fit to work right, and they never are. If they slip on loosely, no good. Just never seem to pull up square.

You can check it via the boresight method, center the scope by dialling full over one way, confirming the clicks all the way back and then halving the number back to center. Then fit everything up and boresight the target down the barrel and check scope alignment. The best system I've found for the short rails on the baikals are two direct-mount rings, and a scope with enough tube to be able to be positioned where you need to. Basically the smallest number of bits you can fit everything up with...

Looking at those photo's that's two different rifles and mounts, which one has the issue?

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My rifle is the nicer looking one :-)
The top pic
The other Baikal is off a advert pic on E-bay with that sleek looking rail - see how it fits nicely over that little ridge to rear of the breach opening too
I not understand you guys saying about bore sighting
Not easy with a break action Baikal

Also @Mauser308 - what do you mean by
"Not right, I mean too much left, no I mean that's just no good and not going to work!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mimms2

Nah most I've seen will have one side clamping, and the dovetail cut permanently into the other.
Torquing them in order may make a difference. Shouldn't. I'd be going 1-3-2. or 2-1-3.

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That is correct Re clamping - 1 side other fixed

Now - I know I am dumb regarding these tings - but I cant figure out what all the talk of " rings swapped fore/aft, rings turned left-right, swapped fore/aft again.centre your scope - turrets in middle of adjustment etc"
My scope is with QD Leupold rings - had it on a 243 Marlin prior - no problem
I had the Baikal setup with a Nighvision Pulsar last year - again on same rail and same problem - it was worse as I ran out of adjustment and gave the idea away.
This set up I now have sighted in - 1" high at 50m and centred L/R - but its at 100 on the X axis
My retical is centered in screen (hope this makng sense as you guys arnt maing sense to me :-)

This is a Thermal scope with a menu - not sure if this is same as a normal turret adjustable scope - think not ??

I will attach a utube to show the zeroing procedure
8.30 ish is best place on clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzkPsSbYopk

If there is any overhang from the mount going past the rear of the chamber then you will need to make sure the sight ramp on the action is filed down to a lower point or remove metal from the mount.

This will not be the issue at the moment on the top Baikal, but on the second one will cause issues. Seeing as the top one is yours, it is simply something to look out for if you turn yours around.

Now on your one I see the mount is pushed fairly well forward. Please look and make sure the mount is not catching on the flare at the front. The dovetail flares out at the front to stop mounts sliding forwards under recoil. Though this would usually end up with a wobble....to see if this is the issue, bring the mount back a few mm to where it is nearly flush with the rear of the chamber then tighten.

With the rings etc, what @Mauser308 is getting at is making sure that the rings are not off centre. They shouldn't be that that does not mean they wont be.

I usually clamp my barrel in a vice and look through it at a target / object at about 25m away looking through the barrel / bore. Then look through the scope and see where the cross hair is lined up on. (hopefully same place). Then swap rings front ring to back and back ring to front. And check again. Decent rings , and this should not make any difference, but sometimes it can. That is what he is suggesting.

Also worth trying to set it up so the QR knob is on the right side versus the left side.

Did you have a scope previously on here with rings fitting directly onto the Baikal base, if so was there any issues then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timattalon

If there is any overhang from the mount going past the rear of the chamber then you will need to make sure the sight ramp on the action is filed down to a lower point or remove metal from the mount.

This will not be the issue at the moment on the top Baikal, but on the second one will cause issues. Seeing as the top one is yours, it is simply something to look out for if you turn yours around.

Now on your one I see the mount is pushed fairly well forward. Please look and make sure the mount is not catching on the flare at the front. The dovetail flares out at the front to stop mounts sliding forwards under recoil. Though this would usually end up with a wobble....to see if this is the issue, bring the mount back a few mm to where it is nearly flush with the rear of the chamber then tighten.

With the rings etc, what @Mauser308 is getting at is making sure that the rings are not off centre. They shouldn't be that that does not mean they wont be.

I usually clamp my barrel in a vice and look through it at a target / object at about 25m away looking through the barrel / bore. Then look through the scope and see where the cross hair is lined up on. (hopefully same place). Then swap rings front ring to back and back ring to front. And check again. Decent rings , and this should not make any difference, but sometimes it can. That is what he is suggesting.

Also worth trying to set it up so the QR knob is on the right side versus the left side.

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OK
But if the QD ring set up worked perfect on a rail on another rifle (in this case a weaver rail on a MArlin 243) then that should mean all OK in the Ring dept ???
I will shift the rail to the rear of the Dovetail and see if that makes any diff - I am not a 100% sure - but I thought I did clamp it tight further back (think of the exact reason you highlight) and mybe my sighting in yesterday had it has gone forward ?
I will retry it with marks etc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mimms2

The reticle will always appear in the middle, but what's happening inside your scope is as per attach. Similar concept just with a CMOS sensor, I imagine.

May be quickest to give it, and a bottle of hooch, to someone who's done it once or twice.

if I not live in the wopp wopps - b bloody happy for someone to do ALL my sighting in

Step 1 check the chinese POS. Should be quite apparent visually if it's off. Clamp it up on a bit of 11mm/ 3/8" dovetail bar (certain planer blades fit) that's longer than the pic-rail. Check for discrepancy. File to correct.
POS = ??

Paint your front ring blue and the rear one red.
Now put the red one forward, and the blue one at the back. (swap fore/aft)
See the QD levers both on the right hand side? Try mounting so the front one is on the left. Then try them both on the left, then vice-versa, swapsie-roundsies until you get near-as-on without adjusting scope.

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So the fact the exact same setup (rings and scope not rail) wored fine on another rail and rifle does not mean they OK ?

OK thanks guys
One last dumb Q
Because I am maxed out on wingage - BUT - she is dead on at 50m (which is distance I sighted in at as I have nowhere with more range)
Will it still be on at 100m or will she be sending bullet further right the farther it goes b4 impact ??

id try turning the rings around first

yip Tim beat me too it...we ended up taking smal triangle file to front of dovetail to make groove go further forward.....but sliding it to the back is best...there is a grub screw you could make small hole for too which will mean it cant move...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

yip Tim beat me too it...we ended up taking smal triangle file to front of dovetail to make groove go further forward.....but sliding it to the back is best...there is a grub screw you could make small hole for too which will mean it cant move...

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If you look at the top of the dovetail there should also be a groove for the grub screw to go into as a recoil stopper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

but I thought I did clamp it tight further back (think of the exact reason you highlight) and mybe my sighting in yesterday had it has gone forward ?

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If this has happened then it is very likely the recoil grub screw may need to be used, especially if there is not enough grip in the clamp under recoil.

If the groove is not in the right place for the grub screw there is two options- drill a small hole into the top of the dovetail for the grub screw or drill and thread the rail so the grub screw is above the groove.

Feel free to email me if you need help. When you first mentions Baikal and issue in the title I thought you may have had issues with the 410........

Ive dont the reverse rings on more than one rifle with good results...nothing to loose trying it.... either switch for n aft OR turn one around the other way and see if its closer...then try same with other.... and then with both... its only got to be a tiny bit different to matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

My rifle is the nicer looking one :-)
The top pic
The other Baikal is off a advert pic on E-bay with that sleek looking rail - see how it fits nicely over that little ridge to rear of the breach opening too
I not understand you guys saying about bore sighting
Not easy with a break action Baikal

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oh contray my good man its piece of piss to bore sight with a break open......even easier than with bolt all you need is a firm clamp of some sort or a box with two grooves in it,one at each end...you dont even need the stock.....sit it somewhere and look through the bore,keep jiggling box till you can see something.letterbox,top of fence post,house in distance...idealy something about a hundred yards away.....then look through scope and see where Xhairs are pointing.

using a coloimetre/boresighter you MAY find with scope mounted that high you can zero for sideways but the Xhair will be way off centre of picture on bore scope verticlly...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timattalon

If you look at the top of the dovetail there should also be a groove for the grub screw to go into as a recoil stopper.



If this has happened then it is very likely the recoil grub screw may need to be used, especially if there is not enough grip in the clamp under recoil.

If the groove is not in the right place for the grub screw there is two options- drill a small hole into the top of the dovetail for the grub screw or drill and thread the rail so the grub screw is above the groove.

Feel free to email me if you need help. When you first mentions Baikal and issue in the title I thought you may have had issues with the 410........

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Hi Tim
No that Baikal will be a point and shoot - been walking round today with dogs trying to flush sonething out to fire its 1st shot - but no luck yet

Re other 7.62x39 Baikal
Mmm - I dont think I grubbed any key/screw as there was no where to seat it - and I also think I had rail back 1/2mm clear of breach/break face knowing the issue I had last time
I also could not understand that 3 times I shifted ret + to right and onto new bullet hole and it needed exact same next two trys (but thought maybe I did not do a final hold of main menu button to lock the shift in)
With these Thermal scopes - You fire at Bull - then freeze frame pic - them use menu and shift ret+ over to bullet hole (which is still glowing hot) - push set/lock and - usually its all over in 1 shot.
So I think it has moved up - but it still was way over from my bore sighting b4 going to range, so need to try and rectify that.
Might even change the rings and deff flip to opposite etc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

Hi Tim
No that Baikal will be a point and shoot - been walking round today with dogs trying to flush sonething out to fire its 1st shot - but no luck yet

Re other 7.62x39 Baikal
Mmm - I dont think I grubbed any key/screw as there was no where to seat it - and I also think I had rail back 1/2mm clear of breach/break face knowing the issue I had last time
I also could not understand that 3 times I shifted ret + to right and onto new bullet hole and it needed exact same next two trys (but thought maybe I did not do a final hold of main menu button to lock the shift in)
With these Thermal scopes - You fire at Bull - then freeze frame pic - them use menu and shift ret+ over to bullet hole (which is still glowing hot) - push set/lock and - usually its all over in 1 shot.
So I think it has moved up - but it still was way over from my bore sighting b4 going to range, so need to try and rectify that.
Might even change the rings and deff flip to opposite etc

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Not what I meant. The grub screw is a bolt that goes through the metal. Think of a bolt with the head cut off and a recessed driver head of some sort, usually hex. Like this https://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/grub-...crews/1870721/

They normally screw down from through the rail inside a ring. You can see it on this product.

Attachment 145461

On the rifle the dovetail should look like this

Attachment 145462

One of te screw will go down and engage with the groove to stop recoil movement. Not usually found on weaver as the groove in weaver interlock with the holds on the rings this stopping slippage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timattalon

Not what I meant. The grub screw is a bolt that goes through the metal. Think of a bolt with the head cut off and a recessed driver head of some sort, usually hex. Like this https://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/grub-...crews/1870721/

They normally screw down from through the rail inside a ring. You can see it on this product.

Attachment 145461

On the rifle the dovetail should look like this

Attachment 145462

One of te screw will go down and engage with the groove to stop recoil movement. Not usually found on weaver as the groove in weaver interlock with the holds on the rings this stopping slippage.

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Yes - I understood - will look today

I had a Baikal in 243 years ago, it was a good setup (happily did < 1" @ 100m) so I did some digging. This is I used: https://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hun...2706131849.htm (I looked back in my trademe history)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vulcannz

I had a Baikal in 243 years ago, it was a good setup (happily did < 1" @ 100m) so I did some digging. This is I used: https://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hun...2706131849.htm (I looked back in my trademe history)

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We have used a few of those as well. If you look atthe picture relatively closely, you can see where the grub / recoil screw goes through to the bottom.

The choice of mount system we used on the Baikals varied depending on what scope the owner wanted. Rails like the one listed there were good for "normal" 3-9x40s etc as it allowed enough height with rings to clear the rear blade sight if it was retained.

For compact or similar scopes we used one piece units and occasionally drilled and tapped the top to fit a flat rail for low profile scopes or ones that were wanted low mounting.

In the second one down, the air gun mount has had the underside modified significantly so that it would mount around the flare on the front of the dovetail. We milled out the clamping surfaces.

I am not a fan of using the "two rings" in the lower image as that does not support the scope as well as it could. With shorter scopes it may work depending on eye relief.

The flat rail that has been fitted would also need the rear sight ramp to be filed down so it is lower than the top of the dovetail. If this is not done the rifle will not fully close and it won fire if the chamber is not closed (or it shouldn't) If you look carefully you can see under the rail there is a groove for the recoil screws. (Please note in that image the rail is sitting on the rifle and is not screwed into place- it was done to show the lowest mounting height.

Attachment 145472

First I would remove scope and rings and sight along the groove in the rail to the end of the barrel to see if the end of the barrel is tending off to one side. I have a rifle that has this issue and I could not alter the alignment of the rail to the barrel/action. I fixed it by using Burris rings with the offset inserts to give me windage rather than elevation. Previously it had Leupold quick release rings that would change POI every time the pressure on the lever changed. As pointed out earlier there may be a bit of fudge room with your current rings not being identical to allow some gain by swapping back/front and turning them around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gadgetman

First I would remove scope and rings and sight along the groove in the rail to the end of the barrel to see if the end of the barrel is tending off to one side. I have a rifle that has this issue and I could not alter the alignment of the rail to the barrel/action. I fixed it by using Burris rings with the offset inserts to give me windage rather than elevation. Previously it had Leupold quick release rings that would change POI every time the pressure on the lever changed. As pointed out earlier there may be a bit of fudge room with your current rings not being identical to allow some gain by swapping back/front and turning them around.

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Not easy to get a sight along like that when you half blind and using glasses :-(

OK
I cannot not flip the rail to rear as the recoil stud wont work/align
I have shifted it back and used the recoil pin that I was no using before
No diff
Changed rings - front to rear and left to right
No diff

Think I will go back to the 243 and try and get a better quality rail like the one in 1st post 2nd & 3rd pic

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

Not easy to get a sight along like that when you half blind and using glasses :-(

OK
I cannot not flip the rail to rear as the recoil stud wont work/align
I have shifted it back and used the recoil pin that I was no using before
No diff
Changed rings - front to rear and left to right
No diff

Think I will go back to the 243 and try and get a better quality rail like the one in 1st post 2nd & 3rd pic

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The Burris rings will probably be your best bet.

Have a couple of sets of those base adapters that take Weaver type rings, they do work correctly, will send to you to play with.

left field thought here.....will a DIFFERENT scope line up correctly using the base you have on rifle??????
we use the 2nd mount Tim has shown and it works fine n dandy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

left field thought here.....will a DIFFERENT scope line up correctly using the base you have on rifle??????
we use the 2nd mount Tim has shown and it works fine n dandy.

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No - had same issue
Its now in the bin !!
The rail not the rifle

Sighted in a 243 and 22
Using the QD - worked good and both returned to Zero when swapped back and forth - also sighted .22 in for Subsonic and High V

Will get a descent Picatinny rail out of Russia/East Europe - one designed pacifically for the Baikal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

No - had same issue
Its now in the bin !!
The rail not the rifle

Sighted in a 243 and 22
Using the QD - worked good and both returned to Zero when swapped back and forth - also sighted .22 in for Subsonic and High V

Will get a descent Picatinny rail out of Russia/East Europe - one designed pacifically for the Baikal

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To me brutally honest, probably easier to get it drilled and tapped and bolt a rail directly to the top. I could probably find someone in Blenheim that can help....Or I have some mounts here that may help if you have a inch tube.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timattalon

To me brutally honest, probably easier to get it drilled and tapped and bolt a rail directly to the top. I could probably find someone in Blenheim that can help....Or I have some mounts here that may help if you have a inch tube.....

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Yes - a rail fixed directly on
You thinking of the Bro for that job ??
Sounds like a pretty clever guy

I had a 308 Baikal many moons ago, and asked the local gunsmith to fit a picatinny rail as the dovetail was too short for the scope I wanted to mount. To keep it nice and low he machined off the dovetail and a bit lower again - theres plenty of meat there to do it. Then he fitted a picatinny base on top, cantilevered about 40mm in front of the action. He suggested at the time, that if I wanted to fit a larger scope, or make it even stronger, he could machine the underside of a picattinny rail so that it had a "block" right out at the end of the cantilever, that would extend down to the barrel, and could have another mounting screw in to the barrel. That rifle was bloody accurate!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

Yes - a rail fixed directly on
You thinking of the Bro for that job ??
Sounds like a pretty clever guy

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I wish, No. He does not have the gear for that task, but he does know a gunsmith there who does that stuff for him.....

[QUOTE=timattalon;1039670]I wish, No. He does not have the gear for that task, but he does know a gunsmith there who does that stuff for him.....[/QUOT

I heard from a guy via Facebook who introduced himself as Blenheim Gunsmith but I never kept his details
So let me know if you can and will contact him

Best scope rail I have found is Weaver TO-10 intended for Winchester 9422 lever action.

It is very low profile and converts 3/8 dovetail to standard Weaver.

As the Baikal is has a 11mm dovetail I used a spacer on each side.

The spacer is the stainless steel strips you get with windsreen wiper blades.

Its a bit brutal but with the barrel off the action fit a spacer into each side of the TO-10 adapter and slide it onto the barrel dovetail, now the fun bit, you hammer the adapter until it bottoms out at the front of the dovetail. Hack saw and file the surplus off level with the breech face.

Looks very tidy, as low as possible and is super durable, oh and cheap.